[BUG?] Multiple Monsters, DP Server

[Shiqra]

Maybe this is supposed to be this way, but I found it odd.

I am level 5, and I hit Look - I get jumped by three level 5 monsters. I beat them down to within an inch of my life - and I get this message at the end:

"Because of the simplistic nature of this fight you are penalized 1 point of experience." :shock::shock::shock:

Ummmmmm - ooookaaaay. How does THAT constitute simplistic??

Then, in the spirit of fairness, I will report the exact opposite - at level 6, I get jumped by 2 level 6 monsters after hitting Look, kill them both, and get this message:

"Because of the difficult nature of this fight you are awarded an extra 1 point of experience."

Ok - someone make up their minds here hehehe.

[Lauri]

Yeah, there is some tweaking to be done and truth be told some disagreement about the levels/difficulty/rewards, although I understand they're all admin-settable. They are still being refined and I am sure will be more accurate by the time we release.

We may have to look at overriding the "simplistic" and "difficult" messages when more than one monster is concerned. The feedback is awesome though, anyone else with opinions on the monsters is encouraged to post here =)

[Shiqra]

I DEFINITELY think the experience awarded should somehow be proportional to the amount of difficulty and risk involved.

I don't mind slumming - it's a good way to earn gold so I can build up my armor and weapons. And it makes for a fairly quick day in the Forest, which is good for us busy players. But slumming and taking twice as many turns to kill because I have 3 monsters on me and then only to get some low amount of experience just doesn't seem worth it in cost vs benefit. There's gotta be a balance there somewhere.

I realize you have accelerated the process and have thrown this on us barely-formed 2 DK players in the interest of experimentation. I'm happy to be your guinea pig. It is FRUSTRATING as all heck though. I've been trying to keep track of experience earned in single, double and triple Look fights to see how they compare. So far my preliminary results are showing less or same for multiple fights. That seems horribly unfair. I am interested to see how it all pans out in the end.

That said I DO like the nailbiting risk involved as I keep hitting F - should I stay or should I run now?? Thanks to reading this forum I realized I could switch targets, so I use my Everquest strategy for adds to knock down the hardest monster first, then switch to the next one after I've beaten the first to <10 hp, and let my riposte finish him off while I focus on his mate. I wish you could sic your pet or mount onto another monster while you fight one - that would be neat. I need to find out what things in this game on this server act as damage shields - that will make a HUGE difference. And I forget now which stat makes you Riposte more - more forum diving :D
But it makes for a LONG day in the Forest, and frankly I don't have that kind of time. I LIKE being a farmie because days are relatively quick.
It's not totally hopeless, and I like how it has made me think - but good gravy - having to choose between being repeatedly whooped by 3 monsters of my level or higher or spending an eternity at each level - right now it's trying my patience considerably.

[EventHorizon]

For what it's worth, I agree with Shiqra. I think it could easily lead to burnout very, very quickly. (Okay, I'll be even more honest, in my case, it might easily be leading to burnout, though somewhat slower.) Ultimately, I wonder if maybe there is a better place to implement multiple monsters, either on a much rarer basis or maybe instead of trainer fights on occasional levels (5, 10, 15 maybe?) or maybe you get some sweet buff out of it (you know, "being pumped from overcoming the mob you head into the forest in stronger spirits") or something like that. I just feel that the ricks far outweighs the rewards. Unfortunately I feel that this is a common problem. I got attacked by Charon (The Ferryman), and, after and incredibly difficult fight (I think he had two levels on me), I got no experience, lost all my gold, and four turns. That was a huge letdown.

[Talisman]

I, too, am in agreement that the XP and gold rewards need to be reviewed. Shiqra, if you could put your observations into a tabular format, it would give us a start to some data with which we can look at making adjustments.

EH, as I've mentioned before, I do intend to reduce the chance of multiple monsters in due course. It's good to know, however, that it would indeed be best as a more rare event.

[Qwyxzl]

Having now gone through 3 days of the multimonster fighting I have a few observations. It seems like you get about the same xp for multiple monsters as you get for a single. But they are definitely more dangerous even if they are weaker. Not being able to heal in between fights is very dangerous. And because it is a single fight but takes extra long to finish it potentially uses up more resources in the form of buffs.

[Furion]

I wish you could sic your pet or mount onto another monster while you fight one - that would be neat.

I think that is a great idea. I wanted to make sure it wasn't overlooked in Shiqra's long response. I do not have anything else to contribute about multi-monsters at this time, sorry.

[Lauri]

The fast wearout of buffs has been raised. For most of those, the admin can adjust them on the server to compensate, but there's a hitch - if I make a pony last 100 rounds, then a farmie gets 100 rounds with single monsters every time, and a god gets 100 rounds all used up in 5 fights. I think we may have to think some more on how to address multiple monsters overall.

[EventHorizon]

Can I also point out the inconsistency of the player only getting one attack against multiple enemies but those multiple enemies each get one hit against both the player and his (or her) companion?

[Shiqra]

Yeah - that's why I think having controllable mounts/ pets/ companions/ familiars/ hired assassins would be pretty neat. "Skeletal minions - I command thee to attack an Enchanted Laundry Basket!" That sort of thing...'Course coding that into a text-based game might be a nightmare - I don't know.

Also a damage shield potion/ buff/ ability (wait - I think that one is already in the game and costs 4 points!). But damage shield the way I am used to it is it surrounds you and EVERYTHING that hits you takes damage. It starts off small at lower levels (1, 2, maybe 3 points) and gets stronger as you progress. Right now you can Riposte if you are lucky and that helps - but not enough.

What would be REALLY helpful is a forest special that would renew one or more or your ability points. Or one of the shops in town could sell alchemy Potions of Memory which would allow you to do the same. Make it cost precious gems or gold, don't make it TOO easy hehehe. Put a limit on how many times a day one can use the shop/ get the special. Or make the special have high risks involved. The key is your ability points are player controlled - YOU get to choose when is best to use them. All other buffs start to get used up as soon as you attack. If a potion could be made that you could drink in the middle of a fight that would be AWESOME. Potion of Regeneration, Potion of Barbed Armor, Genie in a Bottle (fights with you) - some ideas. Because invariably, toward the end of the day, when you have used up all your abilities, Cedrick has cut you off for awhile, Merick won't feed your mount, and all you have are Generosity and Melba Toast, you will get jumped by 3 monsters of your level, and within 5 tuns they will have beat you to half, and you MAYBE have one of them to half. If you are careful you can kill one, then run or die, because by then you are at <20 hp and you are facing TWO with twice that.

I LIKE the added risk, planning, thought, and strategy that multiple monsters brings to the game. But it needs MAJOR work. I hope your player base is patient enough to wait it out. Because right now it is VERY frustrating, even to players who know better.

I have some results from yesterday of # monsters, xp and gold earned. I will tabulate them for Tal and PM them, and post some statistics here for us all to read later. I have work to do right now. Tonight I will do a day of slumming (yesterday I Looked) so that can be compared to Looking. Preliminary results show multiple monster Slum fights produce DISGUSTINGLY low xp rewards.

[Talisman]

Patience: Yes, please! Do have patience! We're finally getting some (IMO) excellent feedback on where we need to go with this feature. This wouldn't be possible unless they were occuring fairly often. As soon as we get some tweaking done and tested, I PROMISE I'll set them to occur at a higher DK range and with lower frequency!

Difficulty: A lot of the comments I see sort of suggest an attitude of "I deserve the right to win every fight!". I know none of you are conciously thinking of it that way, but if you take a lot of the comments objectively that's sort of how they sound...at least to me. I think if even strong players are being forced to think twice, possibly to run, or to slum, then we're on the right track. There's a fine line between discouraging players and challenging them, and we're trying to position ourselves on the right side of that line right now...perhaps we're close.

Legacy Thinking: These new features obviously require both administrators and players to alter their thought processes from the traditional "this is what we're used to". Players need to change some of their tactics, and this is a good thing. Administrators (including me), for their part, need to re-examine settings for buff and mount durations, for example.

There are a lot of great suggestions coming out of these discussions. Although we might not decide or be able to implement all of them, you can be assured that some will be implemented or prompt us to do something else to restore balances.

My view on some of the suggestions:

Healing mid-fight: You're surrounded by enemies sworn to send you to visit Ramius. Do they stop swinging at you while you drink a healing potion? Heck no, they give you no quarter and continue striking. Although there is a potions module which (I believe) allows you to heal mid fight, I don't think this feature should be part of the core package.

One Player hit vs multiple Opponent Hits: In a real melee situation, each of your opponents will be swinging at you, but at the same time you'll only be able to swing at any one opponent. Those of you who've played in the SCA know what that's like! I don't think there's anything wrong with each opponent getting to hit you while you only hit one in return. I could see an added feature in the code to increase the odds of one opponent getting in the way of another opponent's shot, thereby increasing the chance of a MISS, but beyond that...status quo, I would think.

Mount Targetting: No idea if that would be possible or executable in a clean fashion, but it's something we can look into. Probably not for version 1.1.1, though.

Companions: We're still learning about setting up companions to provide a balanced game, but they have the potential to be a key component to success in multiple fights. I'll be looking at developing a few more and implementing them in DP LoGD for further testing. In the meantime, those of you with access to the source code are free (and encouraged!) to develop, test and send me your own companion concoctions for consideration.

Gold and Experience payouts: I agree these are too low; with the results from Shiqra's note taking, we'll take a look at making the challenge of a multiple opponent fight more rewarding.

Restoring Use Points: Shiqra's suggestion of a special or store which adds to your daily use points actually echoes something I had been thinking about. There aren't currently any specials I'm aware of which provide such a boon, but I had been thinking we could use something of that nature. I might get to it, unless one of our resident coders comes up with something else first. I don't think a store is necessarily good (unless drinks are changed to have that ability), but a special would work.

Saucy's concern over farmies getting ponies that are good for 100 rounds can easily be addressed by minimum DK requirements for "multiple opponent enhanced" mounts.

I hope my ramblings have reassured those of you who might be concerned that what you see is what you get, or that we're not overly interested in your input. Thanks for your patience, perseverance and thoughtful feedback!

-=Talisman=-

[kickme]

One problem you didn't address:
When fighting one creature with companions, the creature gets to attack all of your team each round, but you only get to hit one of the creatures at a time when them are teamed.

[Shiqra]

That's why getting one or more of your ability use points back would be awesome, because in the case of the Mystic, regeneration IS a midfight heal. Shiqra on Central was a Mystic all the way until they made the dragon harder, when she switched to Thief. I can't begin to count the number of fights I would surely have died in had I not used a well-timed regen.

Thanks for the Admin feedback. It's good to know you all really do listen to what we have to say.

And I have patience aplenty - I am not leaving, but I may have to cut back a LOT; I simply don't have the time to devote to the game as it is. (well, until I have thought up a cool new strategy and have to go experiment bwhahahaha)

[Furion]

I think if even strong players are being forced to think twice, possibly to run, or to slum, then we're on the right track.

---------------- plus ----------------

Gold and Experience payouts: I agree these are too low; with the results from Shiqra's note taking, we'll take a look at making the challenge of a multiple opponent fight more rewarding.


-------- equals? ---------

A way for gods and higher to not have 2-hour days? In other words, by increasing the difficulty at higher amounts of DKs (through multi-fight) over what it traditionally is, and lowering the number of forest fights usually required to gain sufficient experience at higher DKs, you could retain the same overall amount of difficulty faced per DK, and so diminish one of the game's most important outstanding issues: the fact that days become ridiculously long as you ascend the ranks.


Two additional comments: (bonus points, woo!)

kickme's point is very valid: If you can't get multiple attacks, then neither should forest creatures on you and your companion. Only fair.

Also, I was thinking again about Shiqra's suggestion to aim your mount's attacks and was thinking that might greatly increase time required to do forest fights. That could probably be resolved with an "intelligent" aiming code that would not require clicking or hotkeys but would also have the mount attack logical targets, like targets with low hp. Or maybe you could choose between a few options in preferences: "My mount attacks my target", "My mount attacks the target with the least HP", "My mount attacks the target with the lowest defense", etc.