[Suggestion] Multiple Enemies

[EventHorizon]

Okay, I'll be honest, I love the multiple enemy scheme, but there are serious balance issues. I like the underlying idea, but it got hurt a bit in implementation.

The difference in difficulty between 1 enemy with 20 hp and two enemies with 10 is not insignificant. As between one enemy with 20 hp and two with 20 hp, I feel I have two options, go slumming or search suicidally. And then, after I kill both of them, this is considered a standard fight... I'll be honest, between my second double fight (I died immediately in my first) and my dragon fight, the dragon fight was easier! As a rule of thumb, I can expect triple the damage of an average fight at the level of my enemies. What I think needs to be done is an encounter level system where one level one and one level two, is at least a level two fight. Frankly while two level ones is quite easy against a level two character, anything more than that is very difficult. Especially at low levels, two monsters of your own level should be counted as two above your level for bonus experience.

Borrowing again from Dungeons & Dragons (I'm not trying to bludgeon you with "higher authorities" here, just not plagiarize), the Dungeon Master's Guide suggests that at high levels the players have the resources to cope much more easily with hard fights. Now, I know that this feature is intended for higher DK's, which may mean much more powerful mounts. If that's the case, then I could see it. Certainly my Valkyrie from Classic would make this a much easier fight. The problem is without access to those mounts, every fight is a nail biter. Unfortunately, most people will only bite their nails for so long.

I like the feature a lot, but it increases the difficulty a ton more than to me seems reasonable, and there are huge balance issues.
Cheers. - EH

PS: It seems to me like this also favors some skills over others. For instance, thieving seems like it would be more useful than mystic powers.

[Elessa]

um, is there something wrong with having to "slum" for a fight? i know that every time i begin playing on a new server i slum for the first five or six DKs while at the lower levels simply because the character isn't well developed. not to mention there is the need for acquiring gold to assist in advancing.

aye, the feature for multiple opponents is actually defaulted for players with 10 DKs. they were activated at the lower DK rank for the server simply in order to begin to obtain some feedback sooner.

are ye using the targetting feature to take on the weaker of the opponents? or are ye simply hitting "5" for each round and not using tactics?

as for mounts, well, ye just have to wait and see what shall appear at the appropriate time. no, i am not going to copy mounts from classic. however, there is a stable of over twenty mounts which have been created.

from reading feedback from players about the multi-opponents i am getting the impression that many have forgotten what being a new player is like as they have become used to playing with developed characters.

i do agree there should be some adjustment with the experience gained from fighting multiples as opposed to a single creature.

[EventHorizon]

Ahm, by most standards, I'm new on Classic, as well as Dragonprime. And when there is no weaker opponent to target, it doesn't matter. But I had been going in with most buffs (Audrey, Mulekick, mount, and one other) and eeking it out with two hitpoints after getting a regeneration. I added some armor, (I had been saving up for better), and it made a huge difference. My point was I was getting pretty close to leaving since it would be slumming all the way to the Dragon which would take a pretty long time. Part of my frustration was due to the fact that I was always getting double teamed. It's much better going now.

One possible bug, which I can't test, but strongly suspect, is that there's a pretty major exploit left open. If you have the sort of buff (mount, drink, skill, whatever) that automatically deals damage at the start of a round, you may be able to use it when switching who you attack. If you switch back and forth, your could probably arrange to have one enemy dead, and one almost there pretty easily.

[Elessa]

realise that the settings we have for the site are not what a typical server would be seeing. due to wanting feedback we set the fights to occur after 2DKs rather than 10DKs and to a frequency of 50%.

in regular gameplay, i would expect a server admin to leave the default to 10DKs so that the character is a bit more developed. the frequency would also be significantly less.

remember, the site is for realtime play and development of the next version of the code. in some instances there will be higher difficulty than on an average server.

as the number of players advance, ye may notice some adjustments being made.

for now, we are seeking as much feedback as quickly as we can get it.

please do not allow frustration to cause ye to want to leave. the site is in flux.

[Talisman]

This sort of feedback is what we need; remember, too, that we are also playing with regular accounts alongside the rest of ye, and are experiencing the same things ye're reporting.

In some cases, we'll say "Yeah, that's right - this setting needs to be tweaked a bit here, or a bit there", other times we'll figure that easier isn't always better. Remember...running is always an option.

As Elessa mentioned, the setting is a bit low in allowing multiple opponents against someone with only 2 DKs, but we did/do need feedback and testing. That setting will be raised closer to 10 DKs in due course, and the frequency of encountering multiple opponents (currently 50%) will be reduced as well.

In the meantime, Relick is slumming right along with the rest of ye...and learning to change his tactics in response to the new variables...

[EventHorizon]

So you're Relick...interestant. Anywho, I'm mostly down to the possible exploit I mentioned, but I might also push multiple enemies back to level, or just work on making encounter levels closer to what they should be. I'd also suggest that you get more gold from a multi fight, after all you killed two (or more?) enemies.

[Phira]

There are a zillion (okay, fewer than that) topics concerning multiple enemy fights, so I figured I would pick whichever one seemed most appropriate for my comment. Tadah.

I stayed at level 1 for a LONG time for a few reasons, one of which was to avoid multiple enemies. So when I finally leveled up, I had completely forgotten to watch out for them, and I almost died on my first turn in the forest. THAT was fun.

After some more experience with multiple enemies, I still dislike them greatly. For me, they suck out a lot of enjoyment of the game, especially since I don't have the greatest mounts, and Use Points run out. I would say that waiting for 10 DKs is definitely more appropriate, but at the same time, I don't think it's going to get much easier. With the choice of mounts, I don't think that multiple enemies would ever feel easy. Being attacked by two monsters of the same level is harder for me than Thrillseeking. In general, it's not enjoyable.

I know that multiple enemies is going to be switched back to 10 DKs. But when? Anytime soon? I wish that we could turn it off, like we can do with PvP. I think that it would be important for people to beta it, but do we all have to? I hate to sound whiney, but I really do not like multiple enemies, and since there's still work to be done with the system, I think that people should volunteer to have multiple enemies while kinks are worked out (such as experience and gold per fight). That way, not everyone has to deal with it. And by not everyone, I mean I wouldn't have to deal with it.

[Shiqra]

I don't like being forced to slum, even as I gain in DKs. I find it tedious and quite boring. BUT - that said, it is the prerogative of every admin to make their server as they see fit, and if some want to make theirs an Extreme version that's really difficult, like the Hell levels of some games, that's fine. And there are a lot of likeminded players who would love to play a game where they have to fight tooth and nail for every scrap they get. But more casual players would get frustrated very easily. I fall somewhere in the middle. I do enjoy a challenge; I enjoy "beating the system" so to speak and coming up with a strategy that allows me NOT to have to slowly and painfully slog my way through level after level, and I like trying to see if it is even possible to beat said system. I'ver never been one to follow status quo.

So I am going to stick it out, and gather data on xp and gold rewards for these fights and assist the powers that be with facts and hard numbers, which they can use to tweak it to something that works exactly like they want it to. I've given 'em my 2 coppers on how I feel, and now I'm onto facts and numbers.

Have you read the strategies posted here Phira? Maybe there's something helpful in other players' experiences that might help you get a leg up on those pesky forest critters that have suddenly decided to gang up on us.

[Elessa]

as of yesterday changes have been made to the mounts as i fine tune them for multi-fight encounters. there is still some work to be done with them, yet every one has had some adjustments made in duration for starters.

[Shiqra]

*CHEERS for Elessa* HUZZAH!!!!!!!!! That will be a HUGE help!!!! WEEEE! I can't wait to try it out!

[Lauri]

After some more experience with multiple enemies, I still dislike them greatly. For me, they suck out a lot of enjoyment of the game, especially since I don't have the greatest mounts, and Use Points run out.

That will barely be an issue because when the code goes "live" to other servers, the normal setting will be that you only see multiples one in every 20 fights or so. :)

I would say that waiting for 10 DKs is definitely more appropriate, but at the same time, I don't think it's going to get much easier. With the choice of mounts, I don't think that multiple enemies would ever feel easy. Being attacked by two monsters of the same level is harder for me than Thrillseeking. In general, it's not enjoyable.

Keep in mind, it will be a "surprise" unusual event to see multiples. You see the jewelry monster, or the tattoo monster, or Lonestrider occasionally, and those are harder to beat. The game is still enjoyable. Fights aren't supposed to be "easy". Easy is actually very boring. Having played on a server this week where the admin was so excited to get players that he handed out 100 attack points, let me tell you, it was a complete bore. We also know that the difficulty is a problem and we're still working on that. :)

I know that multiple enemies is going to be switched back to 10 DKs. But when? Anytime soon?

DragonPrime is a TEST server. You know that! It's not a case of "when it gets moved back to 10DKs". That doesn't help people test anything if they do that. The *normal* setting for other servers will be 10DKs. *Normal* doesn't apply on DragonPrime - things have been adjusted and tweaked, the creatures are way more often than normal, just so that there are _plenty_ of tests done on them. We would be here until Christmas if we waited for everyone to reach 10DKs and then they only saw the monsters every 20 fights.

I wish that we could turn it off, like we can do with PvP. I think that it would be important for people to beta it, but do we all have to? I hate to sound whiney, but I really do not like multiple enemies, and since there's still work to be done with the system, I think that people should volunteer to have multiple enemies while kinks are worked out (such as experience and gold per fight). That way, not everyone has to deal with it. And by not everyone, I mean I wouldn't have to deal with it.

Uh - this is a test server. To be completely honest the multiple monsters and the companions are 99% of the reason players are helping. And to be candid, there is no real help to anyone if they're not testing the things that need testing. In return, DP has given you an interesting place to play an interesting game.

People volunteer to beta test. If you don't want to help with the things we need help with, that makes it pretty difficult to understand why you're playing on a beta server?

[Talisman]

I commented in one of my other posts that yes, I will be changing the settings to reduce the frequency of multiple opponents. In fact, I'll be looking at mellowing them out a bit tonight, at least until we get some new tweaks to assess. Elessa has been adjusting the settings of mounts and drinks in an attempt to get a better feel for what would constitute more balanced buffs given the M.O.'s.

By virtue of playing in the DragonPrime LoGD, you're volunteering to test this stuff out, so I'm afraid there won't be any opt-out option coming. At the same time, I'll do my best to make sure what you're testing doesn't ruin the game for you, but sometimes it's impossible for us to know without the player feedback (which we're most definitely getting!).

Edit:
I've changed the M.O. settings somewhat, and we'll see how that works out:

Minimum DKs before encountering MO's increased from 2 to 3.
Percent chance of encountering MO's reduced from 50 to 35
Maximum opponents reduced from 5 to 4.

[Phira]

I apologize; I do know that DragonPrime is a test server, and you're right that we're responsible for being betas. It's very clear and written right on the site. So I understand why we can't turn it off. If it were intended as a common occurrence after testing is done, though, that would be different, and I think that you understand that.

To be very, very fair, though, I think that the general feedback has been either "I don't like it," or, "I don't really like it, and here are some techniques for not dying." I understand that you are all trying to make the game better, which is great. But I sort of feel as if my head has been bitten off after I expressed my feelings concerning multiple enemies. I know that many people have already given feedback concerning M.E., and that you have been addressing the issue. Please, though, take the critique of the system with a little more grace. I don't think that you've been taking the constructive criticism very well, and not only with me. Yes, we're testing the system, but if you want feedback, you have to take it graciously. Otherwise, we wouldn't be betas.

[EventHorizon]

With all due respect, Talisman, I feel like you've changed it just in time to make my life more difficult in two or three days when I kill the dragon. ;-p

Actually, I'll be honest, by about level eight or nine I didn't particularly mind them at all. Between more time with a mount and having lots of money to throw around since I had all of my equipment, and simply getting used to it, multi-fighting became much less of a big deal then it had been. So, as far as I'm concerned, go ahead and give me multi-fights! The only problem with them is they make the game take longer, especially at the point where we all are in terms of not really being sufficiently prepared for them. That in turn means that turns take longer, and could lead to burnout, though I'm over my simply beginning to burn out out of bitterness.

Perhaps we'd be better served if we could have a real time chat on the subject with all the 2+DKers? That way we could really get ideas flowing. Maybe either an appointed time somewhere curiously between a rock and a hard place (not to ruin game secrets), or via IRC/AIM. If you'd like to talk to me about it, feel free to AIM me at rdellsy.

Cheers. - EH

[Talisman]

Phira: I'm sorry if I've given you the impression of not wanting the feedback, as I most certainly do. Sometimes my answers may be 'short worded' as I've already made the comments elsewhere in the forum and just wanted to review them quickly. I have been reading each and every comment made, thinking about their overall effect on the gaming experience, and intend to do my part in the developmental process to improve the feature so it provides a challenging but enjoyable event for us all.

EH: Whenever I'm online, I can be found in the #greendragon and #dragonprime channels on the blitzed.org server, and always willing to chat. I may take a while to reply, but I will definitely reply!