HITPOINT CHANGES - OFFICIAL DISCUSSION TOPIC

[Fionnabhair]

::wonders what a 'real life' is::

/me thinks it has something to do with a thing called work, family, and friends, but can't be positive...

[muad]

if you want to check out the "new" stuff before it goes live on central, you could always play a character over on dragoncat. we have been using this stuff for about a week now and i think that most of us just love it. our mounts are different (as are many other things too i guess) but the changes are not bad at all. i went from about 1400 or so hp down to 20 (as i included two dragon points for hp in my re-spending). after the second or third resurrection you pretty much get the feel for the change. i also had a little more than 2000 gems. i still have most of them and have lost a few to lonestrider. the gorgon is quite fun as is the cerebus. the jewelery shop is nice and i hope it gets tweaked down the road. good for a start but could be better.

i can't wait for central to push the code. i look forward to testing the limits of my character.

[Furion]

if you want to check out the "new" stuff before it goes live on central, you could always play a character over on dragoncat. we have been using this stuff for about a week now and i think that most of us just love it. our mounts are different (as are many other things too i guess) but the changes are not bad at all. i went from about 1400 or so hp down to 20 (as i included two dragon points for hp in my re-spending). after the second or third resurrection you pretty much get the feel for the change. i also had a little more than 2000 gems. i still have most of them and have lost a few to lonestrider. the gorgon is quite fun as is the cerebus. the jewelery shop is nice and i hope it gets tweaked down the road. good for a start but could be better.

i can't wait for central to push the code. i look forward to testing the limits of my character.

I have restrained myself from making an alt on central or playing dragoncat because I don't think I have enough self-control to manage two characters AND get all my work done in a responsible fashion. :D

Would you (or anyone else) mind briefing us on the gorgon, cerebus, or PVP immunity?

[SaucyWench]

Sorry =P

The Gorgon is just the jewel monster, I simply haven't referred to it by its name. Cerberus is the tattoo monster I've already mentioned. And I was probably a bad girl revealing the PvP immunity, but it's quite simple.

Players have long whined about being killed every night, so you now have a chance to opt out in your Preferences. When a player starts on this game (or starts over after killing the dragon) they are what's called Neutral. At this point they haven't burned any blue candles and they haven't attacked anyone in PvP. While you are Neutral you can decide to keep yourself safe from PvP. There is a setting in your Preferences that says:

Willing to engage in PvP?

and it defaults to YES. You can change it to NO if you want to stay safe. When you set NO, you can't see the Slay Other Players link, you can't see who's asleep in the Inn, and you can't burn blue candles.

HOWEVER

The moment you either attack someone, or trade a PvP with Heidi's blue candle, you are NO LONGER NEUTRAL and Willing to engage in PvP? will LOCK on YES until your next Dragon Kill. Anyone can then kill you when you log out.

[ggeezz]

The PVP immunity option scared me when I first saw it. I immediately thought the pool of available PVP targets would decrease quite a bit. But after reading Saucy's post, I don't see how a player with several DK's under their belt would benefit from opting out of PVP. Even if you don't attack other players, you would have to be able to get more than 5% experience from the FF's from Heidi.

But for new players I could see how this option might make them more comfortable. I think this is a good move.

[SaucyWench]

Exactly. I am someone who (even though I get smashed every night) would stay in PvP so that I can use the blue candles, and I think others will do the same.

And, you're correct that it has the best potential for new players, but ironically, I bet most of them try attacking someone anyway, just to see what happens.

[Booger]

oh, I'm soooo tempted just to annoy McD... =P

[Moonchilde]

and it defaults to YES. You can change it to NO if you want to stay safe. You can change it back and forth at any time while you are Neutral. When you set NO, you can't see the Slay Other Players link, you can't see who's asleep in the Inn, and you can't burn blue candles.


Small change to what Saucy said here.

Choosing to opt out ALSO makes you non-neutral for that DK. Once you have made a choice, either explictly (by choosing to actively change your state) OR implicitly by using a PvP or a blue candle, then you are locked into your choice for that DK.

[Stank]

Huzzah! No more whining!

I, for one, love the idea of the candles turning off the PvP immunity thing. At first it didn't quite make sense, but then you relize that it's a give/take thing, what the entire game basically is, and it makes perfect sense. Players burning candles in pacifism would have an unfair advantage over PvPers, and the PvPers wouldn't get the overwhelming evil satisfaction of beating up pacifists. Plus the PvP pool would be low. I just thought I'd commend the staff on that decision, and the idea in general.

I know I will still burn the blue candle. Both because I like the bonus forest fights and I know I would absent-mindedly do it anyways, so I might as well just get my mistake out of the way. And it's fun seeing who kills me every night, and therefore deserves my skunken wrath! >: )

[Furion]

By the way, I've always wondered: If all buffs (except three) are disabled during PVP, and you always get full health defending, then, ignoring the effects of the Random Number Generator, why should the best players/players with the best strategies get beaten every night? To take Saucy as an example, when she gets "smashed every night" is that from the other Gods? Why is it that people tend to lose every night?

[Sergei]

Waiting for the Server to return....

Does this mean Zero Hour™ has arrived? :wink:

[Furion]

IT'S HERE! IT'S HERE! THEY'RE DOING IT!!! I'm so excited! :D :D :D

*takes a deep breath, calms down, and looks at Marcus*

Ah yes, I mean, Death to the Caps Lock Key. :D

This is sweet!!

[Landon]

It is done. Now... what to do with all 1100 gems? haha

[Sergei]

Doesn't seem different... *sniffs the airs* Doesn't smell different.

YET. :twisted:

Should have guessed when I saw that all the VIPs were on at the same time. No ribbon cutting ceremony? :lol:

Good luck out there, everybody.

[Furion]

Doesn't seem different... *sniffs the airs* Doesn't smell different.

YET. :twisted:

Should have guessed when I saw that all the VIPs were on at the same time. No ribbon cutting ceremony? :lol:

Good luck out there, everybody.

Same feelings here, exactly. And I even saw MightyE, and didn't put two and two together :D

-----------------------------post-change feedback------------------------------

Honored to be putting the first piece here. JCP, you asked for mount info; I'm noticing already that without my Tynan's buffs that my mount does a significantly larger portion of my total damage, which seems obvious I guess. So far it seems my mount seems to work better as it hits the baddies for proportionately more damage and they (the baddies) are slightly reduced in HP (I didn't have much extra because of Tynan's). I hope that helps, and sorry the change didn't go as planned, so far. (Nary an orange candle or new gem feature in sight, although Lonestrider has yet to show his scurvy face.)

Oh yeah, and it was awesome taking some PVP revenge on people who weren't logged in!! :D :D :D


Edit: BD just informed that I falsely assumed that everything Saucy talked about would be implemented simutaneously, so I'm sure we'll see it soon enough.

[Waugh]

It's different. And I am excited. And that's coming from someone who can already tell he needs to alter his strategy a bit.

[Elessa]

...I hope that helps, and sorry the change didn't go as planned, so far. (Nary an orange candle or new gem feature in sight, although Lonestrider has yet to show his scurvy face.)


Edit: BD just informed that I falsely assumed that everything Saucy talked about would be implemented simutaneously, so I'm sure we'll see it soon enough.

think about it for a moment. the changes being implemented are extremely complex. doesn't it make sense for each piece to be installed, noted to be working correctly, then installing the next one? they will happen. hath some faith.

patience is a virtue. possess it if ye can. seldom in a woman, never in a man.

[Sichae-Saracen]

Wow... 667 gems... all to charm!

Bwahahahahahhaha

I love the changes. Doesnt bother me none. :)

[Furion]

think about it for a moment. the changes being implemented are extremely complex. doesn't it make sense for each piece to be installed, noted to be working correctly, then installing the next one? they will happen. hath some faith.

I heartily agree. I'm ready to see what happens next. On that note, will there be multiple server shutdowns, and multiple extra new days?

patience is a virtue. possess it if ye can. seldom in a woman, never in a man.

That's just so mean. :twisted:

[Elessa]

patience is a virtue. possess it if ye can. seldom in a woman, never in a man.

That's just so mean. :twisted:

not meant to be mean. just a little ditty about patience my mother taught me one day as a little girl as we sat in the car waiting for my dad to take care of some business in a building. i kept fidgeting and asking when we could leave. it has stuck with me ever since.

i thought it appropriate as i keep seeing so many of ye chomping at the bit wondering when things will happen.

simply means 'be patient', especially ye antsy guy types.

[YurianStonebow]

:fidgets around in his chair.

I can't wait to get off my work shift and play already! :cry:

[WWWWolf]

Holy whatever.
Until I got levelup I was level 4, I had, what, sixty-something hitpoints and I'm not dying a lot.
And forest fights were heck of short, generally pretty interesting, and ...stuff.
Wish I wasn't this coffeed to make sense of it all, but overall, My Worst Fears didn't come to pass, which was all that mattered.

I just wished to say that I'm glad to have been here to witness this historic day, and I have complete confidence in our Implementors to get things right, like I had since I started following this thread. :)

[Gargoyle]

What should I do with this truck load of gems? Just be patient?

[ElxBorracho]

I blew 600 on hp before i realized they don't perm anymore.
Kind of want to re-allocate my points. :(

I though it was "x" DKs = max available hp

IE 92 DKs = Max 460 hp possible at level 1.

Guess I have to wait to DK before I really experience the change.

[Atrus]

patience is a virtue. possess it if ye can. seldom in a woman, never in a man.

Heh I was a fan of the changes....and looking forward to some "successful" messages for a little while... :twisted:

And men can be very very patient. my dear friend...how else do you think we survive marraige? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[onedarkdemon1]

zero hour you have left me having 299 gems im sad I didnt have 300 and this was a perfect time for me since i just killed the dragon BEFORE zero hour

[calandra]

Woke up to a "You have been killed" message by a Baron with 105 hitpoints and MANY DKs less than myself. He lost NO hitpoints in this encounter.

Ok could be because I hadn't set my DK points yet and only had 20 hitpoints and no att/def. Slightly unfair to those who haven't had a chance to set them but it's only a once off death.

PvPed Shar (who had 130+ hitpoints) and died. By this stage, I had 30 hitpoints, 69 att and 69 def and got walloped.

ok, once again, we were warned that pvp would be interesting .. so let's try the "flawless/easy" forest fight theory.

In forest just "looking" for fights and getting many of them flawless THEN THIS
Level: 1
Start of round:
Batling's Hitpoints: 40
YOUR Hitpoints: 28
Batling surprises you and gets the first round of attack!

Your ettile moves forward into battle!
Your ettile tries to attack Batling but MISSES!
Your ettile attacks Batling for 4 damage!
Your ettile attacks Batling for 1 damage!
Your ettile tries to attack Batling but MISSES!
Your ettile attacks Batling for 3 damage!
Your ettile attacks Batling for 1 damage!
Your lover inspires you to keep safe!
Batling hits you for 84 points of damage!
You have been slain by Batling!!!

A monster ONE LEVEL LOWER killed me with ONE HIT! I had BOTH mount and lover's protection buff.

I'm not convinced that this "lower hitpoint" strategy/theory benefits everyone.

[chirona]

I don't know what to do now. I never attack anyone and I and prefer to lose when I am attacked.

I play to relax and enjoy the longer gameplay. I started contributing to the board after I realized that I enjoyed it so much (change of pace from eq or wow).

As stated by others, I have put my gems into HPs because it was the only permament upgrade. I now have 943 gems and no clue whether i should keep playing because I have 3 choices:

1) spend my gems on something that will be wiped as soon as I kill the dragon.

2) don't spend the gems (hoping that the next change will give me a useful purchase) and risk losing the gems.

3) don't spend gems, don't fight, log on just often enough to keep account and wait for a some change to allow me a benefit from the gems.

#3 is what I will choose for now as I wait for more info.

I do NOT use the PvP aspect of games. Let me option to automatically die when attacked (I don't care) but please give me a use of my gems that lets me stretch my gameplay.

note: I am sorry if this post is negative but I feel that I am being punished to enhance PvP for others

[JCP]

. By this stage, I had 30 hitpoints, 69 att and 69 def and got walloped.

ok, once again, we were warned that pvp would be interesting .. so let's try the "flawless/easy" forest fight theory.

In forest just "looking" for fights and getting many of them flawless THEN THIS
Level: 1
Start of round:
Batling's Hitpoints: 40
YOUR Hitpoints: 28
Batling surprises you and gets the first round of attack!

A monster ONE LEVEL LOWER killed me with ONE HIT! I had BOTH mount and lover's protection buff.

I'm not convinced that this "lower hitpoint" strategy/theory benefits everyone.

Ok. let me try to answer this.

We'll use this player as an "example", which means I'm not making any personal attacks.

First, note your dk point assignment. Not very balanced, but you knew that.

It's a pretty good strategy, as evidenced by the 40+ forest fights that only took off 2 points of damage.

What you are doing is the following:

When up against forest creatures, their "points assignment" will usually average out, therefore it is a smart strategy to force your att and def higher, as you'll have a better chance of attacking or defending, i.e. killing them without taking damage.

However, what happens when you are up against a creature with stats that do not average out? Or when the RNG hits a low number for your attack or defense? And no buffs can protect you from the RNG.

You get hit, and you get hit hard.

I have put my gems into HPs because it was the only permament upgrade. I now have 943 gems and no clue whether i should keep playing because I have 3 choices:

1) spend my gems on something that will be wiped as soon as I kill the dragon.

2) don't spend the gems (hoping that the next change will give me a useful purchase) and risk losing the gems.

3) don't spend gems, don't fight, log on just often enough to keep account and wait for a some change to allow me a benefit from the gems.

#3 is what I will choose for now as I wait for more info.

Let's review:

Gems for hitpoints WAS a permanent deal.

That is no longer the case.

If you are waiting for gems to give you something as useful as permanent hitpoints, then you are going to be very disappointed.

Gems will no longer provide such a benefit.

Are there other things to buy? Yes, look into jewelry.

Are there other plans for gems in the future? Oh, yes indeed. But not along the lines of permanent hitpoints.

[calandra]

Ok. let me try to answer this.

We'll use this player as an "example", which means I'm not making any personal attacks.

First, note your dk point assignment. Not very balanced, but you knew that.

It's a pretty good strategy, as evidenced by the 40+ forest fights that only took off 2 points of damage.

What you are doing is the following:

When up against forest creatures, their "points assignment" will usually average out, therefore it is a smart strategy to force your att and def higher, as you'll have a better chance of attacking or defending, i.e. killing them without taking damage.

However, what happens when you are up against a creature with stats that do not average out? Or when the RNG hits a low number for your attack or defense? And no buffs can protect you from the RNG.

You get hit, and you get hit hard.


For those that used to play the "strength" strategy, this "low-hp" strategy is new and confusing. We have to experiment all over again, whereas those used to it, know exactly what they're doing.

Will we be given another chance to reset our DK points?

Suggestion:
Reset DK points - cost 100 gems!

That'll allow us a chance to spend our gems and experiment with this new strategy of playing. Kills 2 birds with 1 stone ... or ... kills 2 dragons with 1 gem.

[jrminga]

Suggestion:
Reset DK points - cost 100 gems!

there was a lot of information in this forum, so some signal may have gotten lost in the noise.

5. Heidi will have an orange candle which also costs gems. She will give players an opportunity to change the way they spent their dragon points *IF* they decide later on that spending on 100 extra forest fights was a mistake, for example.


so there you go! it is a good idea.

[calandra]

5. Heidi will have an orange candle which also costs gems. She will give players an opportunity to change the way they spent their dragon points *IF* they decide later on that spending on 100 extra forest fights was a mistake, for example.

Ok it pays to read the WHOLE forum before opening one's mouth, placing foot in it and suggesting an idea already stated.

[Furion]

Tee hee. I knew someone wouldn't like some revenge being taken out. :D

I believe that was Baron Farglebargle Calandra. He did it while I cheered him on. He got Booger too. I know I got a Conqueror.

Yeah, and the orange candle is going to be good. It was actually my confirmation that not all of the changes had been implemented yet.

Chirona- there are going to be lots of interesting gem choices. Read this whole thread, if you get a chance, and don't worry. If you read you'll also see Lonestrider's feeling a little merciful these days.

Also, the PVP immunity option is definitely for you, if you can bear never seeing Heidi again.


----------------
I hope my feedback on mounts helped. That part by Calandra about the forest fight was helpful, definitely. I probably am still going to do high Atk/Def and bank often, but maybe I'll consider boosting HP as well. Maybe the Gryphon is the way I should go after all.

JCP, do the clockwork mounts counter somewhat the obvious weaknesses caused by picking 1/2+ of your DK points to one perk that Calandra exposed? Thanks.

[calandra]

Tee hee. I knew someone wouldn't like some revenge being taken out. :D

I believe that was Baron Farglebargle Calandra.

Revenge? That's what gives pvp a bad name - specifically targeting someone for a reason.

[JCP]

JCP, do the clockwork mounts counter somewhat the obvious weaknesses caused by picking 1/2+ of your DK points to one perk that Calandra exposed? Thanks.

Not always possible, I'm afraid.

For example, mounts cannot affect your hit points.

The clockworks don't compensate for your dk assignment as much as they use it to provide maximum gain.

[SaucyWench]

Calandra *may* also have highlighted that the Ettile needs tweaking. It's possible. We need to get this kind of feedback from players on all the mounts and check if they need adjusting.

[SaucyWench]

(Nary an orange candle or new gem feature in sight, although Lonestrider has yet to show his scurvy face.)

Edit: BD just informed that I falsely assumed that everything Saucy talked about would be implemented simutaneously, so I'm sure we'll see it soon enough.
While Elessa and BD very kindly provided these explanations, a more important factor is the time zones we live in. MightyE sent the changes live while I wasn't at the keyboard. Being in Australia, I didn't log in and have a chance to activate everything for several hours. They are all active now.

[Gargoyle]

Help me understand any changes that went into PvP. I didn't read about any and therefore assumed things would be similar.

I fought Qwyxzl twice, lost both times. I have higher HP (+50) and second time my Attack/Defense were both (+10 each) higher. Now I know the RNG can be cruel sometimes ... but he crushed me. It wasn't even close. Doing 30-40 more HP on me per round. He's a Storm Giant and I'm a Dwarf. Both level 4. The boulder didn't account for much each round (2-3 HP).

Any ideas or hints for a drunken Dwarf?

[SaucyWench]

Does he use Tynan?

As I understand it, Tynan changes now stay in PvP (too hard to undo them properly, so we made it fair for both sides).

Apart from that... I don't know why you lost both times.

[Atom]

Can't say I'm a fan of the changes, though I daren't get specific as I'd hate to get accused of being a 'negative whiner'. *sigh*

Overall I don't see why you can't just reset the entire game if you want to make changes this major to the game. It's not uncommon in online gaming to have total resets and I suspect it's the only genuinely fair way to account for such an enormous shift in game dynamics. I accept the BETA status of the server, so I'd accept losing my 23 DK's better than this kind of attempt to pretend it's still the same game.

[TheWatcher]

I just wanted to say that overall, I do like the effect of this change, and they seem quite balanced to me. I found my previous investments in HP a bit of a waste, so this was a nice opportunity to set that right.

A few observations that may or may not be useful to the admins:

- I encountered Cerberus a few times already (6 times in 2 gamedays). Personally I think it's *very* easy, but that may be because I have some tattoos.
- The dragon appeared more difficult to me, compared to my other recent dragonkills it was much closer. Can this be related to the HP-change, the other recent dragon changes, or should I just blame the RNG?
- PvP is indeed very different. I'll need to think about my PvP strategy, but I guess that's a good thing.
- I just bought some jewelry, but I cannot find proof of that. Could you display the jewelry in a players biography, alongside the tattoos?

[JCP]

Can't say I'm a fan of the changes, though I daren't get specific as I'd hate to get accused of being a 'negative whiner'. *sigh*

Overall I don't see why you can't just reset the entire game if you want to make changes this major to the game. It's not uncommon in online gaming to have total resets and I suspect it's the only genuinely fair way to account for such an enormous shift in game dynamics. I accept the BETA status of the server, so I'd accept losing my 23 DK's better than this kind of attempt to pretend it's still the same game.

If you back up your opinions with facts and observations, we will listen.

We're not like other "common" online games. A complete server reset would have a few problems for us - some players have invested years into their characters, we need a variety of character strengths to beta test the game, etc.

In addition, if we did a complete server reset every time we did something "significant" that affected the game, we'd be doing one every 4-6 months.

I mean, just wait until the really big changes we're working on are finished.

A few observations that may or may not be useful to the admins:

The dragon should be more difficult. That it is still possible gives me hope.

[Maaya]

In the off-chance of encountering the fairy, giving her a gem, and says "Your maximum hitpoints are increased by 1!", is it still permanent?

This is aside from that temporary max hp increase you can normally get from the other place.
I know that THAT is temporary, but I don't remember any definitive answer about the fairy part of the discussion.

[Gargoyle]

Does he use Tynan?

As I understand it, Tynan changes now stay in PvP (too hard to undo them properly, so we made it fair for both sides).Whether they are in or out, shouldn't his Attack/Defense be accurate when you go to that out of the way pub and pay to learn about your foes?

[Acemaster]

Hrm, I thought Tynan buffs always stayed in PvP...

[Gargoyle]

- I just bought some jewelry, but I cannot find proof of that. Could you display the jewelry in a players biography, alongside the tattoos?I too bought some jewelery and couldn't see it displayed anywhere with my character. Showing what jewelery you are wearing would be good to see somewhere.

[Acemaster]

In the off-chance of encountering the fairy, giving her a gem, and says "Your maximum hitpoints are increased by 1!", is it still permanent?

This is aside from that temporary max hp increase you can normally get from the other place.
I know that THAT is temporary, but I don't remember any definitive answer about the fairy part of the discussion.

I just encountered the fairy, and it said your hitpoints are PERMANENTLY increased by 1. With an emphasis on "permanently."

[Maaya]

Sorry about that. And yes, that's what I was talking about. What is the decision concerning this?

[Sabu]

Along the same lines as Gargoyle, I was attacked by Shar. I had 130 HP, 79 atk, 79 def. Shar had 140 HP, atk and def in 45-50 range. She won the PVP and lost only 14 HP. Before these changes, she used to kill me all the time :) (well done, Shar!), but now I am surprised.
If you spend gems on temporary HP and use Tynan's gym, 1) do they appear when we do a check on the enemy's stats, and 2) is the extra atk+def considered in PVP? (I have read Saucy's post about this, but my question is about temporary HP). Thanks.

[SaucyWench]

Good question. I don't *know*. I think that the DHT shows NON-Tynan stats. Hopefully Moonchilde can let us know.

Also, if you find anywhere like the fairy that says *permanently* please hit Petition - those hitpoints are no longer permanent on Central.

[Fionnabhair]

- I just bought some jewelry, but I cannot find proof of that. Could you display the jewelry in a players biography, alongside the tattoos?I too bought some jewelery and couldn't see it displayed anywhere with my character. Showing what jewelery you are wearing would be good to see somewhere.

I agree - after I bought jewelry I immediately checked out my bio, hoping there would be a neat description of my recent purchase.

However, I did notice that you can tell what you've bought because it is no longer available to buy from Oliver, but you have the option to sell it back to him.

[Sabu]

Oh, I see the importance of jewellery now. My precious gems ...

[Stank]

Ugh, I'm afraid to log in with all this chaos afoot... The orange candle is something I'm very grateful for, though, because I know I'm going to mess my DK point relocation up.

Oh, and I have never used Tyna's Gym, but I was a fan of permanent changes, so I suppose the way the game is going now I will have to try it out. But why on earth would it be making that much of a difference in PvP? In some instances the attacker's attack and defense were 30 over the person they attacked, and they still lost badly. I mean, Tyna doesn't give you over 30 attack and defense a shot, does it? And if it does, I feel that may be one of the game's new major problems. Only major by comparison, mind you, because it doesn't effect many of us, like me, in the slightest. ^^

[Sabu]

If a character had 1000 gems (which is not an exaggeration), and got 500 temporary HP by trading them, he could potentially get 25 atk + 25 def in tynan. So, it is possible, but I am not sure if this is how the game works.

And if this is indeed the case, then the extra HP won't be lost immediately after DK.

[Furion]

I think having Tynan in PVP is good, but the DHT needs to be fixed, obviously, or it is rendered pretty useless.

Did I mention my mount lasts 1.5x as long now without my HP? So nice. Now I can finally feel the joy of those who already went low on their HP. :) (satisfied smile)

Stonehenge should be permanent too! It's so dangerous. :shock:

[Acemaster]

Just to clarify confusion, the HP from the fairy is temporary.

[Furion]

Oh no! I guess that means that Stonehenge has no chance either. Ace, you better go edit those old posts. :(

[GOLD]

nicely done everyone, hitpoints are overrated, i think of this place of predators sure you may be higher in the food chain, but there will always be a larger link, yes i have read all 21 pgs of this topic which was very informative & could possibly be the most reading ive ever done in 1 sitting,

your friend 4 life Gold™

[Stank]

*bows humbly at the feet of the administration* Thank you, thank all of you! At first I thought you were only doing this to hurt players like me whilst helping the others in a small way, but now I realize you were doing it for my own good, as much as the good of others! And I was too ignorant to realize this. I thank you, I thank you greatly. I have never had this many flawless fights, and aside from the ocassional low-HP scare, everything seems to be going great!

To summarize, I had 19 points. 8 went to forest fights, a commodity I'm finding more valuable by the minute, 2 to HP, 5 to attack and 4 to defense. I made sure to use variety and not go to top-heavy in any areas, having learned my HP lesson. This strategy, at least to me, seems to work perfectly.

Now as for the Gorgon and Cerberus... I have some problems with them.

1) They show up too much. I had to fight Cerberus three times, and I've heard stories of the same for the Gorgon. Hideous monster fights should not show up as much as the RSP Gnome, at least I don't think they should...

2) They're too powerful. I mean, I fought them twice without my gryphon, and was on the wrong end of a merciless beating both times. I understand why I lost to the Gorgon, I have no tattoos, but I never had a chance against it! Now Cerberus... I bought a choker the first thing this morning, the most expensive of jewelry, I think, but he beat me worse then the Gorgon did! I'm really puzzeled about that one... And now I'm VERY worried about what the dragon has in store for me... *shudder*

The ideas behind them are good though.

[Furion]

Good stuff Stank. Some possible mitigating factors here:

1. Small sample size. Maybe the RNG was just bitter at you for all those flawlesses. :D

2. Beating the monsters is supposed to be extremely rewarding. So they should probably be tough. Acemaster already has said they give a TON of experience in our clan hall.

3. Saucy said the bling is only slight protection against Gorgon, and seemed to imply that that protection was less than that of tattoos against cerebus.

I myself have not found either yet, but they do seem to be popping up a lot for others. Maybe a frequency reduction is in order?

[Acemaster]

Skank, Cerberus is the tattoo monster, not the Gorgon. Likewise, the Gorgon is the jewel monster.

[Stank]

Really? Well then this makes no sense, as the person I studied that beat the Gorgon three times had a tattoo, and I beat Cerberus once (with my gryphon), and was massacred by the Gorgon... UGH! Head pains! >.<

And I know I'm only one person, Furion, but RND never has been nice to me, and this was over two game days. ;)

Plus I still believe a monster that nearly kills you and takes 600 experience away, at level 5, should not show up very often, especially since there are two of them. No matter how much experience they give you.

[Acemaster]

Personally, after 2 game days I have encountered the Cerberus once and the Gorgon twice. Must just be your luck then.

[Stank]

I guess. I do only have good luck when I don't want it. Which by definition I suppose would become bad luck... Anyways, I guess I'm just worried about the amount of super powerful entities filling the forests, especially now that the hit points have been reset...

[JCP]

right now, all the specials have the same random chance. so experiencing one more than another is just the RNG having fun.

[Gargoyle]

Just to clarify confusion, the HP from the fairy is temporary.I don't get why the EVERYTHING is temporary. There should be some reward for longevity. Why not have the fairy HP become permanent?

[Acemaster]

:raises his hands in the air.

I didnt make the choice...

[ElxBorracho]

Just to clarify confusion, the HP from the fairy is temporary.I don't get why the EVERYTHING is temporary. There should be some reward for longevity. Why not have the fairy HP become permanent?

I agree. Stonehenge/Fairy should be perm.
This could help out everyone.

[JCP]

I'll discuss it with the senior staff.

As far as I know, fairy's not going to be permanent, but I may be able to make stonehenge different.

[Sabu]

If you spend gems on temporary HP and use Tynan's gym, 1) do they appear when we do a check on the enemy's stats, and 2) is the extra atk+def considered in PVP? (I have read Saucy's post about this, but my question is about temporary HP).

Good question. I don't *know*. I think that the DHT shows NON-Tynan stats. Hopefully Moonchilde can let us know.

Any comments, JCP? Thanks.

[JCP]

Tynan affects pvp.

Not sure about the DHT interacting with Tynan though.

[SaucyWench]

Yes, the jewel monster and tattoo monster are too common. I've cut their odds by 2/3 but until that code gets pushed they will be around a lot - sorry. As for permanent hitpoints from specials, I understand MightyE thinks they all should be temporary. So for now, no hitpoints in specials are permanent. JCP, he and I will have a chat though and we'll let you know if that changes.

[Stank]

*hugs Saucy, then quickly backs up and coughs, pretending no boundaries were overstepped.* Uhm, thank you. My scrawny character and I are very happy to hear that. Erm... Nothing just happened. >.> <.<

[Maaya]

My feelings toward the changes is so-so.

I find myself still dependent on my mount, which hasn't changed.
The main thing that changed is that I die BEFORE I can use up all my fights, save money in bank, and then kill myself in PvP later to gain favor in the underworld. I used to die mainly in the PvP on purpose(and the off-chance of a bad RNG turn-out in one of the specials).

With my Valkyrie in full throttle, I could get fights done in 1 or 2 rounds, which leaves much possibility for a Flawless Fight anyway. In this case, I generally make the 10-15 forest fights I started out with last for over 30-40 fights. So the argument of lowHP=Flawless doesn't really interest me nor did it make me like the changes.

I've yet to encounter either of the gem/tattoo monsters, probably because I DIE before I can meet any. I've got two each of tattoos and jewels though, so that might be part of the reason... <_<;;

Oh, and personally, I preferred the higher HP, because I believe that gives for more chance for a critical hit. I don't think the game mechanics allow for the opponent in PvP to do a critical hit, so in the case of a same level, equally equipped, equal stat PvP in the fields, the attacker has an advantage with the criticals minus RNG variation. (Correct me if this is a misunderstanding)

[JCP]

(Correct me if this is a misunderstanding)

Consider yourself corrected.

[Fionnabhair]

I've given these changes a good whirl on dragoncat and have just started trying them out on central, and I just want to echo the other praises and say I love them! I'm loving my anorexic little 0 base hp character. I get mounds of flawless fights and gobs of gold, and although I know this is nothing for more experienced players, I was so happy with myself to get a 7-day dk, my best yet!

<point and bow to musician, err, coders>

[Maaya]

(Correct me if this is a misunderstanding)

Consider yourself corrected.

Hum... then why have I never seen things like "double power hit" and the like from PvP opponents where the damage involves 3-digit numbers? Or just luck that I didn't see any?

[Atom]

Can't say I'm a fan of the changes, though I daren't get specific as I'd hate to get accused of being a 'negative whiner'. *sigh*

Overall I don't see why you can't just reset the entire game if you want to make changes this major to the game. It's not uncommon in online gaming to have total resets and I suspect it's the only genuinely fair way to account for such an enormous shift in game dynamics. I accept the BETA status of the server, so I'd accept losing my 23 DK's better than this kind of attempt to pretend it's still the same game.

If you back up your opinions with facts and observations, we will listen.

We're not like other "common" online games. A complete server reset would have a few problems for us - some players have invested years into their characters, we need a variety of character strengths to beta test the game, etc.

In addition, if we did a complete server reset every time we did something "significant" that affected the game, we'd be doing one every 4-6 months.

I mean, just wait until the really big changes we're working on are finished.


Sorry but I think that it's ridiculous to have such an unbalanced playing field to reward people for their length of play. Give them an extra uber-title or something, but having people with x amount of DK's that were reached in an easier setup makes it harder/unfair for new players and comparison impossible. (That was the case before, but imo the new rules make it even more stark.)

Personally I suspect that this is going to make the life of the new player even worse as the variables on attacking a player with more than one DK means that people will just PVP the newbies. (Again this was already the case to a degree, but the new setup seems another step in this direction, which is unfortunate if you want to attract new players.)

I await your additional changes with interest, but you have a lot of work if you want to ever achieve anything approaching a balanced game.

[Snoopymcc]

I have not been on the game for that long but I am sure that if the changes are too hard for some people to deal with that no nether-world creature is going to come out of the computer to get you if you decide there have been to many changes. I could never come up with such a cool game and I trust MightyE to make it even cooler, even with a little discomfort now and then!

[SaucyWench]

So far the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive. Contrary to your assertions, Atom, low players now have an option to opt out of PvP altogether, which will make them safe from PvP from higher players. The higher players, also, are slowly but surely embracing the blue candle as they hear their compatriots regale the vast improvement in XP gains from the turns as opposed to the PvP.

Among the knockers, one player told us we'd sounded the death knell for the game. One told us that all the players would leave. One indicated we would not get any more donations. One said other servers will stop updating their code. You get the idea.

Overall, yes, some players won't like the changes. We haven't a magic wand to make the game fair for all. To do that, you need to have perfection. The day that happens, the game will be so bland and boring that I will walk outta here. (That's right... I don't think it will ever happen.) But we do what we can within the bounds we have.

Now that the first part of the changes are in, what I have found is that those *still* opposed fall into a few groups-

*Those who say it won't change anything, even though it already has (a nice smokescreen for the fact they simply don't like the changes as they pertain to themselves)
*Those who say players will all leave, without acknowledging the changes will encourage farmies to stay on (see above)
*Those who have found the changes very inconvenient - this is perfectly valid (but generally these have shown no empathy towards lower players)
*Those who blast abusively and haven't read this thread or bothered to see the other points of view on it.

I will assume that Atom isn't in the last group, as he is posting here. I would be interested to hear his views on whether he thinks it's possible that the benefits of the change might outweigh the inconveniences.

[Waugh]

So far guys, the changes are looking great! I have no problems to report, my strategy (with a Unicorn) of obtaining 3 day DK's has been shot, but I am working on what I need to do to achieve that, not what you need to do... (rolls eyes at those who expect the admins to adhere to their every want)

I would have to agree with an earlier post that the Stonehenge HP becoming permanent would be very nice for the risk associated.

Question on the clockwork mounts. Saucy, you say you need 50%-60% in one dragon point item. Just to clarify:

If I say have 15 attack, 15 defence, 5 hit points and 5 forest fights, can I assume that means:

37.5% attack, 37.5% defence, 12.5% hit points and 12.5% forest fights?

I know this sounds trivial, but I just want to make sure. As, obtaining say the defensive clock work mount would mean adjusting the above to something like:

10 attack (25%), 20 defence (50%), 5 hit points (12.5%), 5 forest fights (12.5%)

Right? Again, sorry if this seems like a stupid question, I do just want to clarify and be sure.

If I have anything else to add, I'll do so later. Cheers.

[SaucyWench]

Just to clarify: If I say have 15 attack, 15 defence, 5 hit points and 5 forest fights, can I assume that means: 37.5% attack, 37.5% defence, 12.5% hit points and 12.5% forest fights?

Correct... not a silly question at all. =)
As it stands, the Ettile would be a better option for you. But, the clockwork mounts have the *potential* to be a slightly better choice, if you were to respend as you suggested.

[Waugh]

Great! Thank you for the quick reply. Then again it is Sunday arvo there... could be expected :wink:

What I posted above was not my exact DK spending, but a rounded hypotetical situation for easy calculation. I kind of like the idea of using a clockwork mount, and might just have to alter myself.

Next question:

Once you pay the full cost, you will lose any hitpoints, attack or defense that you have purchased with dragonpoints until the next new day when you will be able to once again choose their allocation

That's not an immediate effect is it?

[amrothe]

Through being away for a bit and somehow not seeing the mod I lost hundreds of gems when all my stuff got reset. Can I get them back please so I can buy tatoos or somesuch

[Heresia]

I must say that I really like these changes you have made, and am very much looking forward to those coming sometime later! About 18 months ago, I (as Heresia) left the game, because I thought it boring and decided to come back sometime later to see what changes had been made. So, I came back (as Xarazinia) a couple of months ago, and I must say that I think this game has improved a lot during the past 20 months or so (the newest changes included). Keep up the good work, and thank you so much for everything you do to make the game more interesting!


Waugh: Yes, it is an immediate effect and takes place the moment you spend the gems for the orange candle. At least this was the case for me.

[Sophen]

So if you get no permanent HP from forestevents, no one of the events are useful for me any more (Stonehenge was the last I did everytime). What about a preference to disable all the events? This would spare a lot of time.

[jarek]

The new changes are great! I really like the concept of no permanent HP except for DK points. It makes them more unique, like the attack/defence attribute.

However, it was mentioned that some of the motivation for the changes was to cut down on the time each player spends on the server by making the forest fights shorter. This has worked the opposite way for me. I tend to be much more careful in the forest now that I don't have as many HPs as I used to. That means less automated figting, which leads to the forest fights taking longer time. And my shift from HP/PvP to the "many forest fights strategy" makes my days even longer. ;)

I encountered the Tattoo, or was it Jewelry(?), when travelling. I find that OK, but when I was finished getting beaten up by the monster I encountered yet another forest fight. I think it's unfair to continue waylaiding the players when they have just lost against the Tattoo/Jewelry monster and only have 1 HP left. The players really don't stand much of a chance to neither fight nor flee in that situation.

I would also appreciate seeing my jewelry purchases in the bio. After all, they are more of a show-off purchase than anyting else. =)

One question:
How does the clockwork mount that favours forest fights help the players? Does it enhance your attack/defence more than the Gryphon to cover your weak spot? Or does it last longer to be able to help you in a larger portion of your forest fights?

Keep up the good work! :)

[calandra]

One question:
How does the clockwork mount that favours forest fights help the players? Does it enhance your attack/defence more than the Gryphon to cover your weak spot? Or does it last longer to be able to help you in a larger portion of your forest fights?

Keep up the good work! :)

Now I could be wrong (it's been known to happen ... just ask JCP) but I believe the amount of "energy" your clockwork mount receives depends on the stat mentioned. eg: The more defense you have, the longer your terrapin lasts.

[JCP]

Ok, there are limitations on the mounts - I can't use calculations in every field, which is why duration is fixed.

That being said, each of the clockwork mounts lasts longer than the gryphon and has the potential to be more powerful than the gryphon.

I really don't expect there to be many people who actually use the clockworks; a balanced approach is less risky and a clockwork mount will not re-balance you.

As far as a forest event giving permanent hitpoints, I'm being severely out voted in the staff room. And while I may not see all of their points, I do see the argument that even a rare event happens often enough over time that any permanent hitpoint event will bring us to an "uncontrolled hit point" situation like the one we are trying to move away from.

[Atom]

So far the reaction has been overwhelmingly positive. Contrary to your assertions, Atom, low players now have an option to opt out of PvP altogether, which will make them safe from PvP from higher players. The higher players, also, are slowly but surely embracing the blue candle as they hear their compatriots regale the vast improvement in XP gains from the turns as opposed to the PvP.

Among the knockers, one player told us we'd sounded the death knell for the game. One told us that all the players would leave. One indicated we would not get any more donations. One said other servers will stop updating their code. You get the idea.

Overall, yes, some players won't like the changes. We haven't a magic wand to make the game fair for all. To do that, you need to have perfection. The day that happens, the game will be so bland and boring that I will walk outta here. (That's right... I don't think it will ever happen.) But we do what we can within the bounds we have.

Now that the first part of the changes are in, what I have found is that those *still* opposed fall into a few groups-

*Those who say it won't change anything, even though it already has (a nice smokescreen for the fact they simply don't like the changes as they pertain to themselves)
*Those who say players will all leave, without acknowledging the changes will encourage farmies to stay on (see above)
*Those who have found the changes very inconvenient - this is perfectly valid (but generally these have shown no empathy towards lower players)
*Those who blast abusively and haven't read this thread or bothered to see the other points of view on it.

I will assume that Atom isn't in the last group, as he is posting here. I would be interested to hear his views on whether he thinks it's possible that the benefits of the change might outweigh the inconveniences.

I'll start with pointing out that I'm not going anywhere. I run a server myself and am slowly trying to add something back to the community at Dragonprime. (Slowly because my PHP still kinda sucks. :) )

Nor am I arguing that the changes are terrible. I'm not keen on them, but I hope that as time progresses the whole system will be overhauled and they will begin to mesh.

My concern is that we have no fair comparison between players, and in fact a spectacularly uneven playing field on central atm. As I indicated some of these things were already the case, but I'm disappointed to see the trend continuing, rather than an attempt to create some kind of similar gaming environment/experience for all players. In my opinon these changes exacerbate the gap between DK bands, not reduce them and new players are simply walking into a game where the 'gods walk over them' in their daily grind.

The 'blue candle' solution is simply a band-aid, where players effectively cut their participation level in the game to protect themselves. I don't see it as a positive step to encourage players to cut off a section of the game. Surely a better solution is to encourage players to take part in all aspects by solving the imbalance?

I don't have a magic solution (well I do, it's called the reset button ;) ) but I think as a community it helps to be aware of the direction it's heading.

Do I think the "benefits of the change might outweigh the inconveniences"? .... Personally I'm not bothered by the inconveniences. I realise that my 23 DK's on central may be small time to some, but I feel like I'm an experienced player and I'll manage to cope. I'm worried about those players in the first band of DKs, not myself. Because they are the future health of the LotGD community.


I have not been on the game for that long but I am sure that if the changes are too hard for some people to deal with that no nether-world creature is going to come out of the computer to get you if you decide there have been to many changes. I could never come up with such a cool game and I trust MightyE to make it even cooler, even with a little discomfort now and then!

Your post which I translate as "if you don't like it, leave" is not terribly helpful. Discussing these kinds of issues is exactly what this forum is for, and as long as that discussion is civil it should be respected whether it's negative or positive. Also I hope this is a Central server experiment and not an indication that MightyE's core code will automatically be going this way!

[JCP]

Also I hope this is a Central server experiment and not an indication that MightyE's core code will automatically be going this way!

This is the new direction of the core code.

You are free to set your server differently, but the core will be developed using "permanent hp gains only through dkpoints" as the baseline.

[minotaurman]

Someone may have said this already, im not entirely sure because i just skimmed the thread, but i think i have found the reason people think that the hellhound is way too common, way too easy, and not very rewarding. There are TWO hellhounds, one for the new changes and one from the old monster bank. I figured this out because while i havent found the hellhound in real yet, i have found the gorgon and it gave a special message. The hellhound i keep finding from normal monsters does not. Hope this clears up a bunch.

[Pwyll]

I mean, just wait until the really big changes we're working on are finished.

OK, face it: this is a really big change. Don't believe me? It has generated 22 pages of commentary thus far.

Other major changes may be coming, but whether the staff will say so or not this was a major change too. I'm not saying it's a bad change, just a major one.

So far, I haven't seen much effect on my game play - I killed the dragon with the usual amount of damamge and am seeing a normal day in the forest. I usually get a lot of flawless fights at level 1, however, so it will take a few days for me to realistically evaluate the true impact of the change on my character.

As for the future changes - *sigh*, you're going to add more things to kill our mounts, aren't you? :(

[Sneakabout]

*hides the plans for Sneakabout's Burger Bar*

[Elessa]

The 'blue candle' solution is simply a band-aid, where players effectively cut their participation level in the game to protect themselves. I don't see it as a positive step to encourage players to cut off a section of the game. Surely a better solution is to encourage players to take part in all aspects by solving the imbalance?

how do ye mean using the 'blue candle' that allows players to cut their participation level in the game to protect themselves? all the candle does is exchange the pvp turn for time in the forest. the player is still vulnerable to being stripped of exp by another player who prefers to use pvp instead.

the new pvp protection option does not permit a player, who elects to use its feature, the opportunity to use pvp for blue candles nor to kill another player. that is fair... they can't use pvp to gain exp in anyway shape or form, therefore, why strip it from them. they are sacrificing quite a bit of potential exp gains by using the protection.

I don't have a magic solution (well I do, it's called the reset button ;) ) but I think as a community it helps to be aware of the direction it's heading.


how would a reset be a solution? in three months, six months, a year, any new players starting the game would be faced with exactly what is seen now. players who hath been playing longer would hath more strength.

there is no benefit to a reset except for the initial week or so. some players would pull ahead, the individual strategies would begin to come to the fore and soon there would be those stronger in pvp than others; as well as those built for speed in their training.

so, unless the game is being played on a tournament server where the decision is made to reset every thirty days, there really is not a point.

[SaucyWench]

Through being away for a bit and somehow not seeing the mod I lost hundreds of gems when all my stuff got reset. Can I get them back please so I can buy tatoos or somesuch
You will need to petition. You did not lose them. If you spent them wrongly, that is quite different.

[SaucyWench]

/me arms the reset switch ;)

We *are* actually trying to solve the PvP meany-thing. There's already a PvP band system in place on DragonCat. JCP and I said no to it because it had some niggles we did not think fair. However, Sneakabout is looking at fixing it in the next few months - if that code makes it through Kendaer's stamp of approval, who knows? It might end up on Central.

[Fionnabhair]

The 'blue candle' solution is simply a band-aid, where players effectively cut their participation level in the game to protect themselves. I don't see it as a positive step to encourage players to cut off a section of the game. Surely a better solution is to encourage players to take part in all aspects by solving the imbalance?

Like Elessa said, exchanging PvP fights for extra forest fights does not constitute lack of participation - you get to spend longer playing the game, and you still passively participate in PvP by not opting for PvP immunity.

Also, lower level DK players can initiate PvPs, and even win (although not as often as more experienced players), if they choose their targets carefully. Whether or not they initiate PvPs is their choice - some believe it is wrong to take experience from others, and some see it as part of the game. If you're among the former, either opt for immunity, avoiding your own exp loss, or simply don't initiate PvPs. The latter group accepts being killed nightly, and can even get some exp back by PvPing players they can beat or burning blue candles.

I don't agree that this constitutes an imbalance. It generally takes a few DKs in the beginning to figure the game out and explore the continually growing community, so although farmies are usually eager for a first DK, they're not all that concerned about getting it in 4 days, or making HoF for gold or toughness or charm, which are goals higher DK players take on. Farmies are (rightly so) more concerned about discovering game secrets. In this way, I think the game is balanced, but I'm excited to see how the changes (current and planned) will improve the balance and make the game more interesting.

[Furion]

:makes notes as he goes

Atom: "makes it harder/unfair for new players and comparison impossible"

They did say that they needed a variety of player levels to beta test the server. And if you keep playing, you'll see that the changes make it push everyone closer together, not farther apart.

Saucy: "Among the knockers, one player told us we'd sounded the death knell for the game. One told us that all the players would leave. One indicated we would not get any more donations. One said other servers will stop updating their code. You get the idea."

:wonders which part of the brain is responsible for overreaction :D

Sophen: "So if you get no permanent HP from forestevents, no one of the events are useful for me any more (Stonehenge was the last I did everytime). What about a preference to disable all the events? This would spare a lot of time."

Well, I guess this would be an reasonable option, but if I had to guess, would be hard to code, and not very much in demand. So I'm guessing that request will be turned down. Maybe you should give the specials another look through? I find the grassy field, foilwench, the forest fairy, and others extremely helpful.

Jarek: "That means less automated figting, which leads to the forest fights taking longer time."

Ah. Well you see, amount of time logged in is a different beast than server load, if I understand correctly. Server load is amount of data transferred. While it might take some system performance to have players logged in as you described, there is a significant gain from the reduced data processing. The way it works (again, if I understand correctly) is this: after the HP changes, there are fewer rounds per fight, and therefore less calculations for damage and stuff. These calculations take up much more system performance than logged-in users. In fact, the way JCP described html as a static system (see Real-Time PVP threads), if you are not hitting links, but logged-in, you are basically using the same amount of performance as a logged-off player. So you see, the change would actually increase performance.

Jarek: "I think it's unfair to continue waylaiding the players when they have just lost against the Tattoo/Jewelry monster and only have 1 HP left. The players really don't stand much of a chance to neither fight nor flee in that situation."

Oooh. Good point. I agree! :D Maybe they can make those two monsters only forest-type specials, and exclude them from travel?

Jarek: "I would also appreciate seeing my jewelry purchases in the bio. After all, they are more of a show-off purchase than anyting else. =)"

I would too! After all, the staff said that they offer little protection against the Gorgon. But they also said they would not be included in the bio anytime soon. I'm sure they have a good reason. I'm curious myself to find out what it is, but it doesn't sound like it's going to happen.

Question: After Lonestrider is un-nerfed, how are we supposed to save up enough gems to buy the best jewelry?

JCP: "permanent hitpoint event will bring us to an "uncontrolled hit point" situation"

I agree... kind of. I understand the whole HP problem being an impediment to future changes, but couldn't DK points themselves lead to uncontrolled HP situations, if you really get down to it?

Atom, I agree that snoopymcc's post could have been considered a bit harsh, but some people (myself included) don't appreciate others who either don't take the time to read the whole thread or don't consider it carefully enough before commenting/criticizing. You kind of missed the boat on the previous discussions about this change helping farmies, the possibility of a reset, and even the discussion that the central code = the core code = MightyE's game.

Sneakabout: "*hides the plans for Sneakabout's Burger Bar*"

:D Is that for real? (sets himself up for cryptic reply :D)

Atom, I agree with Elessa. If you are worried about the new players, is it hard to see how they can benefit from PVP immunity? I think this is a vital new feature and will help reduce the proportion of people with <1 DK.

Elessa: "how would a reset be a solution? in three months, six months, a year, any new players starting the game would be faced with exactly what is seen now. players who hath been playing longer would hath more strength."

Good point! :D Shows again how a reset would just be short-sighted, and how if players need to be more balanced, a more thoughtful solution is needed. I don't think the game needs to be balanced, though. Due to its cyclical nature, the community and competition are what keep people coming back.

Elessa, nice new avatar! I'll miss your green-haired lady, though. Maybe you should hang onto her!

Saucy: "However, Sneakabout is looking at fixing it in the next few months - if that code makes it through Kendaer's stamp of approval, who knows? It might end up on Central."

:falls over in a dead faint :D

But the... what.... how can you do....? :D What happened to all the points against it, #1 being the number of available targets?

Fionnabhair: "or making HoF for gold or toughness or charm"

Don't forget resurrections! I'm in top 11%, none intentional! Almost there! (See my bio in-game) And I'm not particularly reckless either. :D

:looks back over the post

That was probably too long, but what can I say? The forums have been busy for 24 hours. :D I tried to keep it all relevant. Feel free to demolish it or whatever.

[JCP]

JCP: "permanent hitpoint event will bring us to an "uncontrolled hit point" situation"

I agree... kind of. I understand the whole HP problem being an impediment to future changes, but couldn't DK points themselves lead to uncontrolled HP situations, if you really get down to it?



No.

If dk points are the only way to gain permanent hitpoints, then they are capped at 5*dk. That cap means they are controlled.

If other events give permanent hitpoints, given enough time, then we end up in the same situation we were in last week. It may take us a lot longer to get there, but we could.

[BLOODDRAGON]

So if you get no permanent HP from forestevents, no one of the events are useful for me any more (Stonehenge was the last I did everytime). What about a preference to disable all the events? This would spare a lot of time.

here, this thread might help you: Ability to turn optional specials off (http://lotgd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4909#4909)

[Stank]

Erg, I have grown tired of all these circling arguments. So I will not contribute to them. My stance is clear, I love the changes, have no real problem with PvP because it does reward the right players. You know, the people who've spent YEARS on this game. Whether did it in an easier game format or not, they still deserve to win PvP fights against lower players, and the opportunity to do that. A reset is simply unfair, and as Elessa inidcated, wouldn't solve anything. Plus, if you think some players are angry NOW...

My only real issue is the jewelry in the bio thingy. I think it would fit nicely right under the tattoos. ^^ But the admins have already said they are working on it, and it will be around eventually, so until then I will simply have to blurt out I have a choker to everybody. This is fine for me!

Everything appears to be running just fine, which is a great accomplishment considering the game is currently in a transitionary phase. Bigger things are on the horizon, and the current state of LoGD in just the foundations. That's what I'm picking up at least. And for just being the foundations, the game is certainly running very well. If the major problem is only that players don't keep themselves informed, then there are no real problems at all. And I have a solution to that problem as well, but we would have to donate a lot more per month to hire enforcers to show up at stubborn players houses' and 'help' them read the MotD with their official LoGD bats.

[Furion]

No.

If dk points are the only way to gain permanent hitpoints, then they are capped at 5*dk. That cap means they are controlled.

If other events give permanent hitpoints, given enough time, then we end up in the same situation we were in last week. It may take us a lot longer to get there, but we could.

But there's no limit on the number of DK's. :) :wink: 8)

By the way, thanks for reading through that whole thing. It's harder on the eyes than I thought it would be.

[Stank]

Ahh, but Furion, there is now a limit on HP! Do you realize how long it would take a player to get 1000 Hit points by DKs alone? And if you faced a player like that in PvP, you'd lose no matter what he chose to put his DK points on, unless he got 1000 forest fights. And that's just stupid. Or is it...

Basically, it's now Higher DKs> Lower DKs, and that sorta the way it's supposed to be. Except for that gray area of players within 10-15 DKs of each other. That's where strategy comes in.

[Furion]

Good point, Stank! Like you were at 450 some base HP at 20 some DK's, and now it would take you 10 times that many.

This is going to sound kind of bad, but is it possible there could be a cap on non-DK HP? So you could get maybe 100 extra from Stonehenge/Fairies, then no more?

This would probably take more work than it's worth, but I thought it was good in theory, so I wanted to suggest it.

[Atom]

how do ye mean using the 'blue candle' that allows players to cut their participation level in the game to protect themselves? all the candle does is exchange the pvp turn for time in the forest. the player is still vulnerable to being stripped of exp by another player who prefers to use pvp instead.

the new pvp protection option does not permit a player, who elects to use its feature, the opportunity to use pvp for blue candles nor to kill another player. that is fair... they can't use pvp to gain exp in anyway shape or form, therefore, why strip it from them. they are sacrificing quite a bit of potential exp gains by using the protection.

Of course I wrote that in error because I was doing too many things at once. :( My reference to the blue candle solution was actually about the PVP protection system. So they are not participating in the whole gamut of LotGD play to protect themselves from attack. It just seems a negative approach to me.

how would a reset be a solution? in three months, six months, a year, any new players starting the game would be faced with exactly what is seen now. players who hath been playing longer would hath more strength.

there is no benefit to a reset except for the initial week or so. some players would pull ahead, the individual strategies would begin to come to the fore and soon there would be those stronger in pvp than others; as well as those built for speed in their training.

so, unless the game is being played on a tournament server where the decision is made to reset every thirty days, there really is not a point.

A reset would at least allow that players would have a relative guide to strengths and a fair way of comparing theselves with each other. At the moment a player with 100 DK's has an advantage based on an entirely different game from the one that new players face now.

They did say that they needed a variety of player levels to beta test the server. And if you keep playing, you'll see that the changes make it push everyone closer together, not farther apart.

"if I keep playing" ... :lol: what's that supposed to mean? Have you been testing this out in some way that I'm not aware of over an extended period thus producing this wisdom? I disagree that it will push everyone closer, I hope it's okay if I take a different stance since I haven't had your extensive testing experience with the new setup. ;)

Re the Beta status of the server .. well that's the issue isn't it. We are expected to accept this sort of major change to the system as it's a Beta ... in my opinion people should accept the need to reset when the game changes so dramatically with the same reasoning.

Atom, I agree with Elessa. If you are worried about the new players, is it hard to see how they can benefit from PVP immunity? I think this is a vital new feature and will help reduce the proportion of people with <1 DK.

It sure will benefit them ... by reducing their participation in the game. They will be playing LotGD LiteTM and I think that's the wrong way to solve the problem.

This is the new direction of the core code.

You are free to set your server differently, but the core will be developed using "permanent hp gains only through dkpoints" as the baseline.

Well that's disappointing. Particularly if central is the Beta server I would have thought some time to see how it turns out would have been the way to go rather than changing the core regardless of it's testing status. I guess we'll see the sort of change that happened from 0.97 to .098.

[jarek]

Ah. Well you see, amount of time logged in is a different beast than server load, if I understand correctly. Server load is amount of data transferred. While it might take some system performance to have players logged in as you described, there is a significant gain from the reduced data processing. The way it works (again, if I understand correctly) is this: after the HP changes, there are fewer rounds per fight, and therefore less calculations for damage and stuff. These calculations take up much more system performance than logged-in users. In fact, the way JCP described html as a static system (see Real-Time PVP threads), if you are not hitting links, but logged-in, you are basically using the same amount of performance as a logged-off player. So you see, the change would actually increase performance.

You are of course right about idle players not affecting server load, but it will still take more resources to generate and transfer five to ten individual "attack pages" than one automated one. - Even if you regard all the calculation for the actual fighting as equally demanding on the server for both fighting options. Another thing to consider is all the extra trips to the healers hut. At least to me having low HP means wisiting the healer regularly. Before the HP change I could easily go 5-10 fights without healing. For the lower HP folks fighting automated can be very risky if the RNG decides to be evil, especially if you are thrillseeking and/or in the higher half of the levels. And those who used to prioritize PvP and now use forest fights instead will definitely give the server more load, especially on the lower levels where flawless fights are much more common when you have low HP. :)

[SussieSaxton]

Well, the change has not really affected me. I never chose the high HP strategy because it meant, exactly as other have said, that FF take too long, and unless your mount has travel benefits, he becomes useless quickly. Therfore I only lost the extra HP I gained in the forest.

THe only issue for me, and probably for many others, is what to do with the extra gems? I have all the tatoos available (though I often check in to make sure) and I haven't seen anything more expensive than my current mount in ages.

THe redistribution (again) of my DK points (not that it needed much redistribution) allowed me to get about 4-5 extra flawless fights. I still woke up this morning with a message that I had been killed in the inn, so I don't see that much has changed to all for me. Advantages, I have more gems to spend, otherwise all is well.

Change is good everyone. Think how disgustingly bad life would be if you didn't change your underwear everyday (boy I hope you all change it every day.) Changes keep the game from getting monotonous. I am all for change.

SussieSaxton

[Sichae-Saracen]

I don't really find much problem with the new HP changes.

Scenario of the day: I died at level one, and was able to get to level 3. :)

Less HP is giving me much more Flawless Fights. :) I forgot the exact, but I think I had about 92% Flawless Today.

[Northstar]

I wanted to start by saying I love the changes and I was really affected by them. I had over 500 extra HP's

I do have a question though.

People are already talking about the clockwork mounts as if they are already available.

I have 20 DK's and vistit the stables in Degloburg and Romar every game day and have not seen any new mounts.

Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks

[Sichae-Saracen]

*Sorry Game Secret*. :)

*Edited by BD- Sorry guys but thats a G.S. (hey someone has to be the bad guy...)*

[Elessa]

A reset would at least allow that players would have a relative guide to strengths and a fair way of comparing theselves with each other. At the moment a player with 100 DK's has an advantage based on an entirely different game from the one that new players face now.

still doesn't wash. by thy logic, with the number of changes that occur each month, in order to even out the playing field the server would require a reset every time there was a change. otherwise the players who started playing in june 2005 would have an advantage over those beginning in august 2005 after a change is implemented.

sorry, i truly do not think the staff is going to initiate such a process.

[mcdoodefred]

...And do we reset again in 6 more months when more people join the server who are less powerful. When does the resetting stop? If I knew a server reset every X random months I would be much less likely to stay there. I would want to stay on a server that I knew my old character
would be safe and sound. In my honest opinion.

Everyone always starts the game at a disadvantage, except for the very first player, that is the games nature. Even that player can be passed and someone else who plays more, employes a better strategy or simply is addicted to the game can quickly rise in the ranks. There were people with 1 and 2 day dragon kills when I started... I wish I could have gotten those but I didn't. I did not worry, I simply played and played some more and soon became a powerful character in the lotgd world.

McD

[Nightwind]

can be passed?
like you where by booger?

[Atrus]

Atom, I have read your comments and thought them through carefully.

If you were running a server, did not tell the players that resets would be done on a regular basis, had longtime players on the game...then reset them to zero...you'd have an empty server in less than a few days, word of mouth that would kill your player population and some very angry people on your hands.

Taking a large number of players with 70 or more DK's, and then out of the blue announcing that a reset is about to happen in the name of "game balance" is a fast way to destroy a server.

We will take your ideas under advisement, and be rest assured your arguments will be given their due weight in due time.

[Sichae-Saracen]

*Sorry Game Secret*. :)

*Edited by BD- Sorry guys but thats a G.S. (hey someone has to be the bad guy...)*

Umm... umm... JCP had already stated in this forum that they were that game secret. :) If it wasn't here... then Saucy said it over the phone... :P

[SaucyWench]

... in my opinion people should accept the need to reset when the game changes so dramatically with the same reasoning.
I actually agree with this!!!

But I can predict the kind of reaction it would get ;)
No, you can all relax, we're not going to reset Central... tee hee...

[SaucyWench]

I wanted to start by saying I love the changes and I was really affected by them. I had over 500 extra HP's

I do have a question though.

People are already talking about the clockwork mounts as if they are already available.

I have 20 DK's and vistit the stables in Degloburg and Romar every game day and have not seen any new mounts.

Am I missing something obvious?

ThanksYes, you are. They are 30 DKs up. As a little pointer for those reading this, I recommend you think about NOT buying any of the top 6 mounts the second they become available. There are better choices at that point.

Incidentally, they are set at 25%, which means on any given day, there is only a 25% chance of seeing each new mount.

[Furion]

I simply played and played some more and soon became a powerful character in the lotgd world.

McD

Our very own McD, a rags-to-riches story. Good job! What are you now, a soldier? *Checks HoF kiddingly* *kiddingly double takes* A powerful character, McD? Can you understate it any further, man? Jeez. :D :lol:

No, seriously, good job McD, both in game and showing everyone the attitude any good player should have.

And don't think I don't see you regaining on Booger. :D Something like 15 more? Good luck, McD!!

By the way, I don't know if this helps any, but I just beat a legioness in PVP with over 100 more HP then me, something I never could have done before.

I wanted to repeat a question about Oliver's:

How are we supposed to save up enough gems for Oliver's most expensive jewelry once Lonestrider is un-nerfed? As Sichae(?) already pointed out, going up piece by piece would cost 1550 gems, just for the most expensive. Plus JCP already said jewelry is not a gem bank. Maybe a raising of the resale price is in order?

[SaucyWench]

I wanted to repeat a question about Oliver's:

How are we supposed to save up enough gems for Oliver's most expensive jewelry once Lonestrider is un-nerfed? As Sichae(?) already pointed out, going up piece by piece would cost 1550 gems, just for the most expensive. Plus JCP already said jewelry is not a gem bank. Maybe a raising of the resale price is in order?So, buy the ring, then save some gems, sell back the ring and upgrade.

A staff member already raised this with me. The jeweller was ONLY added so that players with umpteen gems felt like they had something to spend them on, so in all honesty I don't feel compelled to make it any easier to max out your gems. If I do that, you then have nothing to spend gems on again =)

[Furion]

Ah. Well, the gift shop should use gems. That way, they never run out of uses. :D

[SussieSaxton]

I wouldn't like a that at all. I like to spend my gems on something more permanent than roses in the gift shop. There should be other options, like the jewler, me and other like minded players.

How can we say that gems are unique if we start to spend them like gold?

Sussie

[Northstar]

Thanks Saucy.

I will also take your advice and think carefully before buying the first new mount I see.

Again, I love the changes. Thanks for all the hard work

[Syrius]

Gems are still unique! They're pretty and shiny and lovely to have in the pocket and you can buy stuff with them! Kinda like gold! :wink:

[Moonchilde]

Just to clear up some confusion.

1) One of the changes made with this recent change was that only HP which are allowed (by each server) to be permanent are allowed to be exchanged via Tynan for other stuff. So no, someone cannot in fact go buy a bunch of cedrik's potions and use them to fuel tynan buffs.

2) while the support for the perm vs temp hitpoints was made in the core, it is up to each and every server which hitpoints should be temporary or even if any should. BY default, even if all of the modules are installed and activated, the game would continue acting just as it did in 1.0.2, so we are not forcing any game into this model that doesn't want to go there.

3) Tynan buffs were incorrectly handled in PvP before. They would stay for the attacker but would not be there for the defender. Since it wasn't trivial to remove them from the attacker for PVP, and it was trivial to make the defenders available to the defender, to adjust this imbalance, that is in fact what we did.

4) Currently there is no way to show those modification (OR the racial bonuses!!) from the DHT. I will look into this and try fixing it (honestly I'd just forgotten about it).

[Maaya]

Two cents concerning the reset idea, using a personal gaming experience:

I'm currently playing in an online "MMORPG" web-based game other than LotGD, and while I won't advertise the name, it has very erratic resets. Perhaps a day of notice at one time, maybe a week's. The duration of the whole game from one reset to another isn't scheduled at all, and there were no real reasons for recent resets. (No changes, no updates... all mostly to set everyone back to 0. Of course, there were previous resets where a change occurred, but none that changed the game heavily)

The player population?
There's still hundreds of people checking the game in any given 15min interval, with over 20k people playing during any 24hr interval. Overall game population is close to 150k, and I'm ranked in the top #60 or so in power. While it does have a ranking scheme, it doesn't have any particular rewards system for being in the top 10 or anything like that, so I would say it's not a tournament-style.

I'm not suggesting that resets are bad or good. Just giving you the reality and fixing the misconceptions about resets. There certainly were complaints about pointless resets, but there are loyal players and constant growth of new players through portal sites. Badly scheduled resets doesn't necessarily spell doom for a game, and people shouldn't think that it'll kill LotGD.

[Moonchilde]

We are well aware that resets wouldn't cause people to leave IF they came in expecting resets. However, the general expectation on logd has been that we will not reset characters.

While Atom (and others) might want a reset, we have heard him (and others) and we have decided not to do a reset. We will continue to listen to players and take their input into account for the things we are doing to the extent that the input is practical and in line with the direction we want the game to move in and does not conflict with any of our other goals. However, taking it into account does not mean it will occur, or even will occur in a way that any specific person wants.

[SussieSaxton]

I played on another LOTGD server some time back. Within the span of about 3 months, the server was reset 2 times. I really disliked it very much, and did in fact leave their server. After earning buko gems, getting a good mount, getting DK buffs, I went from having a lot of dragon kills back to a farmboy. I would definately NOT like to have that experience here. I really don't know why anyone would want to reset, especially with the new orange candles wich basically ALLOW a reset for a small fee. Please don't reset.

now... if you invented a new race of bearded maidens that got half price on drinks.... that could be interesting....

Sussie

[calandra]

now... if you invented a new race of bearded maidens that got half price on drinks.... that could be interesting....

Sussie

Yes this seems fair, since these bearded maidens would not be getting any attention from Seth! :lol:

[Furion]

Gems are still unique! They're pretty and shiny and lovely to have in the pocket and you can buy stuff with them! Kinda like gold! :wink:

Yep, yep, I agree. When you have over 500 gems, they tend to lose their uniqueness. :wink: I hope we can use them in the giftshop.

[mcdoodefred]

I am a mere 14 away, another 2 days and I will be tied ; )

[SaucyWench]

*grins*

I'll be interested to see what kind of feedback there is for Heidi's new candle. I originally put it in place because I suspected people might make a mistake with those points. I didn't expect people to go and put 1000 gems into Cedrik's potions... sigh...

[ChattyTrog]

Ah-ha! Bet you thought if I didn't post after a few days, I wouldn't post at all. Well, I just logged in after zero-hour and have some thoughts on the changes and the 11 pages of commentary I read to come up-to-date.

Well, I'm liking the changes so far. I don't really see that changing, either. I believe spending 20 of my points on FF is a good move, but this game day is taking forever. Sichae's 92% flawless is probably less than what I've been achieving, but the Unicorn is worth its weight.

Saucy - I will use the orange candles. Maybe once every DK, tweaking and perfecting my strategy. I wouldn't want all your hard work to be moot.

I've seen both the Gorgon and Cerberus and overcame both. Granted my mount is a beast, but I'll fill you in on my first solo encounters.

I'm awaiting a clean bill of health for a return to Petra, and I'm bling-blingin' if you know what I mean. I would make Mr. T look underdressed. Though I find it odd that the jewellry shop is in Glukmoore.

Good job and congratulations to everyone.

[Nightwind]

Though I find it odd that the jewellry shop is in Glukmoore.


my thought as well... i would have tried romar.... so he could be slipping shinny things to the kitchen help

[Furion]

I actually sent in a petition about that. Didn't anyone else notice that Oliver is a dwarf? I was told it was what it was, but that still doesn't stop it from being odd. :D

I'm sure it's in Glukmoore because that is the least active of the towns and they were trying to liven it up a little. How often did you visit Glukmoore before the change? I know I didn't much.

[Nightwind]

I hit every town, every day. Travel kills me more then anything else...

but it's worth it...

/me pets his four day dk, "nice for an amature, eh?"

[SaucyWench]

I'm sure it's in Glukmoore because that is the least active of the towns and they were trying to liven it up a little.

Ding ding.

[Furion]

I hope that was a positive ding-ding, and not a "don't we have a bright one here, JCP" ding-ding. :wink: (jk)

In case you need more proof the change is working, not only did I beat that Legioness earlier, but now have lost to two farmpeople.

Edit: That's a gladiatrix, not a legioness. Sorry about that.

[Pwyll]

Well, having played for a few days under the new conditions I can say that my flawless fight percentage has increased dramatically and I'm killing people in PvP that I wouldn't have dared to attack before. In fact, someone who used to kill me pretty regularly lost the last time she attacked me.

I have encountered Cerberus twice with good results and am waiting to meet the Gorgon - I'm ready for her, if you know what I mean.

Overall, I'm happy with the changes - nice work, MightyE and Co!

Lastly, I will say this regarding Atom's persistent suggestions for a server reset: I have been playing for over a year and have 89 DKs and a top-level mount. It took a lot of time and effort to get where I am. If the server were reset for anything other than a major disaster, I'd be gone - it would just be too heartbreaking to start over from zero at this point. Long-time players deserve something for their loyalty, even if it's just our de facto "head start".

[Gargoyle]

4) Currently there is no way to show those modification (OR the racial bonuses!!) from the DHT. I will look into this and try fixing it (honestly I'd just forgotten about it).Thank you. Fixing this will be a big help.

[Gargoyle]

I'll be interested to see what kind of feedback there is for Heidi's new candle.I used the candle yesterday. Worked fine.

I think the description about "reset occuring tomorrow" (I didn't write down the exact words) was a little misleading in that my stats (HP and Attack/Defense) went down to base (level + weapon/armor) without any Dragon points applied. :-) Which wouldn't have been too bad except I still had 2 PvPs and about 10 turns left.

Anyway, I think the wording should say that effects are immediate and the reset doesn't occur until the next game day.

[SaucyWench]

Heh. I have a warning in there. Heidi is far too peaceful a soul to yell at you to make it more obvious than this:

output("`\$Once you pay the full cost, you will lose any hitpoints, attack or defense that you have purchased with dragonpoints until the next new day when you will be able to once again choose their allocation.`n`n");

(That's what she said to you before you confirmed.)

[Gargoyle]

Heh. I have a warning in there. Heidi is far too peaceful a soul to yell at you to make it more obviousLOL ........ that shows how much I must have been paying attention :-) thanks Saucy!

[Tyrall]

Having gone from a very HP heavy character (I got around 700 gems back), overall I'm enjoying the new me.

Whilst my first DK of the new code was not totally productive (I actually managed to die the first day from a tattoo wound, which the coders have now sorted out!), I managed 44 flawless victories in a row. The first fight after my gryphon tired resulted in me dying, but that's more than I've managed in a day, much less in a row! Overall, my flawless rate for the DK was not that high (73%), but it's made a difference.

I met the gorgon; can't wait to meet cerberus, especially if the payoff is similar.

I've just started my second DK, and have just spent over 2 hours on a single day! It just would not end, so I'm in agreement with ChattyTrog there. Finished the day with 319 fights behind me (86% flawless), which is more than almost all of my recent DKs.

The one 'bad' thing is I'm a lot less effective at PvP, but I am not surprised, especially after learning defenders may not have got Tynan bonuses which was a major part of my strategy (I almost always had over 300hp into bonuses). I always attack 2 levels above me, and I'm now having problems killing those within 5-10 DKs of me (which is as it should be I guess). Will be rethinking my whole PvP strategy, and possibly abstaining, over the next few DKs.

I'm enjoying the new challenge, and it's great to know I can change my strategy whenever I feel like it at Heidi's. Thanks for the hard work guys.

[Moonchilde]

4) Currently there is no way to show those modification (OR the racial bonuses!!) from the DHT. I will look into this and try fixing it (honestly I'd just forgotten about it).Thank you. Fixing this will be a big help.

Just fyi, this has been fixed.

[Atom]

Well, having played for a few days under the new conditions I can say that my flawless fight percentage has increased dramatically and I'm killing people in PvP that I wouldn't have dared to attack before. In fact, someone who used to kill me pretty regularly lost the last time she attacked me.

Nice .. my experience so far is that I can no longer attack players higher than me - they win. Previously I was trying to stick with the approach of attacking higher level players, but now I'll just go with the sure bet of farmies etc.

Lastly, I will say this regarding Atom's persistent suggestions for a server reset: I have been playing for over a year and have 89 DKs and a top-level mount. It took a lot of time and effort to get where I am. If the server were reset for anything other than a major disaster, I'd be gone - it would just be too heartbreaking to start over from zero at this point. Long-time players deserve something for their loyalty, even if it's just our de facto "head start".

Goodness! "Persistent" :lol: Two or three posts ... linked in a 27 page thread ... if I were being persistent about something you'd know about it. ;)

As to your point ... well I'm not going to comment on your decisions, but I've played lots of games for more than a year and accepted resets - it's part of online gaming. Long term players do deserve something for their loyalty ... I'm just suggesting that their reward shouldn't be at the expense of overall game balance. Give 'em a shiny gold star instead. ;)

Whatever .. I've said my piece, there are lots of other servers out there so maybe they'll get a boost in newbies from all this. My argument remains with the central server setup, not the code. Meanwhile I have to spend some time getting #24 rather than posting here. :)


[quote="Atom]... in my opinion people should accept the need to reset when the game changes so dramatically with the same reasoning.

I actually agree with this!!!

Yay - I mean it is a Beta server for goodness sakes. :) What do people think a Beta is?

[SaucyWench]

I mean it is a Beta server for goodness sakes. :) What do people think a Beta is?

A Greek letter... or possibly, that thing you make whipped cream with

[JCP]

Well, maybe our use of Beta is unclear.

Central has many purposes.

It is the "official" site of MightyE, and as such remains family and player friendly.

Central also represents most of the common, default settings of the core code. We run the core download plus a few staff created modules. Outside modules are generally added to the core before they appear on Central.

Central is also the Beta server - which, to us, means that we run stuff ready for a bug test before it enters the core. If it gets activated on Central, there has usually been a lot of discussion and testing done before hand - we do run Alpha servers to try out different things that never make it to Central.

We try to keep the population and experience on Central as stable as possible. The poor players on the Alpha servers don't have that luxury - stuff is broken there quite often.

It is our decision to reset the game or not. To date, we have always decided against such a drastic action. The mere fact that this is a Beta server and we can reset it does not mean that we should reset it.

Would a reset level the playing field and make things more "fair" for some people? Sure. But we learn a lot more about the game and how it interacts when we do not do a reset.

For example, many players, including yourself, are reporting that the recent changes have affected pvp with players above and below their DK ranking. That's information we would not be aware of if we reset everyone. Will we act on this information? I'm not sure, but it's better to have it than to be ignorant of the fact.

[SussieSaxton]

I thought that Beta was a kind of fish found in Thailand rice ponds.

Sussie

[Pwyll]

No, no, that's a "Betta". Betas are the people who do the admin work in "Brave New World"... :P

[Northstar]

I miss Lonestrider.

Any news on when he may resurface?

[BLOODDRAGON]

I miss Lonestrider.


Can those words be used together in a sentence? :shock:

[SaucyWench]

I don't believe this thread says he is even disabled!

Maybe you've just been rather lucky???

[Sabu]

I recently was looking for good PVP targets from list warriors, and found a good one in Degolburg. When I went to Degolburg, that target was not there, maybe because he/she opted for PVP immunity.
Is it possible to show that information in List warriors (similar to horrible gelatinous blob) and also in finding enemy stats from cedrik?
Thanks.

[SaucyWench]

I've asked Kendaer about this, but it's not easy. If he can figure out a way to do it he may. It also presents a problem for people bribing into the inn to hit a target... but those people are taking a risk and lost, so we're not likely to bother fixing it in there.

[Gargoyle]

Yesterday I talked to Dag and saw a bounty target in Degolburg (Viscount Galeon) ... but when I looked in the fields, I couldn't see them. So I guess people bountied, but having PVP immunity, still show in Dag's list as well.

[SaucyWench]

We can't actually stop them, because it is possible to bounty them at level 4, before they have made a PvP immunity decision. I don't know whether Kendaer wants to flag them as being immune, but I'll ask him.

[Moonchilde]

You can and will remain able to place bounties on and see bounties on even people who are immune to PvP.. if they ever stop being pvp immune, well, they are a valid target. However, I'd find it rather odd that someone would be PVP immune if the managed to annoy someone enough to be bountied.. Maybe people are using bounties for other things rather than PvP revenge. Sorry.. this isn't changing.

As for people showing up in the PVP list as 'available targets', targets who are PVP immune SHOULD be being excluded from the list period. It's very possible that the person you saw got killed before you got there.

I specifically tested for people not showing up in the pvplist in remote areas when they were immune and it worked correctly on the test server I run.

[Sabu]

I agree with Gargoyle. I had the same problem with Galeon today. He is alive, level 9 in degolburg and was not able to see him. I wish I was invisible ... :roll:

[Northstar]

I Want to thank the developers for the Orange candle. I am getting destroyed in PVP lately and at least I can now realocate my points

[Moonchilde]

I agree with Gargoyle. I had the same problem with Galeon today. He is alive, level 9 in degolburg and was not able to see him. I wish I was invisible ... :roll:

This is not a bug.. See above. You will STILL see 'immune' players in Dag's list. That is *INTENTIONAL* :)

What you shouldn't see is that immune player showing up in the list of players to PVP, NOR being counted as a 'possible' target at some other location.

[Fionnabhair]

However, I'd find it rather odd that someone would be PVP immune if the managed to annoy someone enough to be bountied.. Maybe people are using bounties for other things rather than PvP revenge.

Absolutely unthinkable!

[Pwyll]

However, I'd find it rather odd that someone would be PVP immune if the managed to annoy someone enough to be bountied.. Maybe people are using bounties for other things rather than PvP revenge.

Well, people have used bounties to do a sort of indirect gold transfer, but that wouldn't work if your target was PvP immune. People might also do it if there was a clan war going on and they were not aware that the person they had bountied was PvP immune.

I have occasionally bountied someone who was making annoying posts in a village but was not in range for me to PvP myself.

It is also possible that someone might notice that there was a bounty on them and take PvP immunity as a spite move until they DK and the bounty goes away - "Ha ha, you wasted your gold bountying me and now nobody can collect it!" :P

[Pwyll]

On to another point... The HP changes haven't really addressed the issue of long-time players being able to slaughter newbies in PvP - anybody with as many DKs as me will always be able to defeat anyone below a certain level.

Also, since everyone has an equal chance of gaining extra HP from certain random special events, it seems odd to make those HP temporary when some of them used to be permanent. After all, if everyone has an equal shot at them, it won't lead to any imbalance that isn't already created by long-timers having a head start.

I do fully support all HP purchased from Cedric being temporary, since that did create a huge imbalance due to some players being able to hoard vast amounts of gems and spend them all on HP. I myself did that once I had the mount I wanted. But since the random events are, well, random, it seems that those HP could be permanent without causing the problem we had before.

[JCP]

Actually, we (the staff) have been counselling MANY people who are finding that the "rules" of pvp have changed drastically. "Always being able to defeat anyone below a certain level" may still be true, but what that level is has drastically changed.

A 10-DK difference used to pretty much guarantee a victory, and that is hardly the case anymore for many players.

About permanent HP from random events, I originally thought the same, that it would be fair and promote diversity. But in long term effects we will just end up in the same position of uncontrolled hit point totals. And such a system would favor players with more forest fights, i.e. chances to trigger such events, which means that all players will not have an equal shot at the events.

We need the control that limited hitpoints gives us, and we gain the strategy elements of DK spending as the only way to gain permanent hitpoints.

[Lanya]

But I thought the change was mainly for lower DK-players to save them to an undisturbed sleep. But as you stated PvP "rule" changed, and now people will PvP even more low DK player to have the garantee.

[JCP]

Not really.

For one thing, that outcome isn't the main one.

For another, while players may pvp much lower targets, those lower targets were still targets before - but now the potential attackers have shifted up by a few levels, which means the number of attackers has decreased. Less attackers for more targets is still better for the population.

If players are really concerned about pvp, they can opt out, which affects both sides of the equation as well.

[Qwyxzl]

The other thing is that because there is less of a difference between people with nearly the same number of Dragon kills you can now attack Higher ranked people with nearly the same rate of success as you would have attacking lower ranked peopleSo for the people at the bottom that means that there are more targets so the farmies should have a better chance of survival.

[Furion]

:agrees completely with JCP and Qwyxzl as they confirm his own findings.

I know that players < 4 DK's were gaining MAD experience off of me. Simply check my statistics.

:Also agrees with the argument against HP from Forest Specials

I thought about that before, and concluded that although it seems fair, the whole point was really to cap HP, so that is what they are doing. I could have articulated that better, but I've been gone a week, so my LOGD mind is a bit rusty :D

[Nightwind]

i'm still thinking..... *waves awy the smoke* but i think because they are only giving temporary points, they can be increased slightly... atleast 3 from the most common one, instead of only one...

I'd go so far as to say five

[SaucyWench]

Come on, Nightwind, you asked for that already and were already told no. :) There is no need to change the rewards or penalties. You simply have to see them in their new context. They are no less valuable now than they were before.

[Nightwind]

i was told, to be exact, 'too hard to make sure it didn't break other things' dosen't keep me from wanting it... then again, i could also want a 1,000 round mount with imunity and 500 damage per round, it dosen't have to happen..

with the new system, my gems are more likely going to foilwench, then the fairy...

[SaucyWench]

*chuckles* Your perogative =)

But you could also look at it this way. Now that there is a smaller window of hitpoint differences, every chance for a slight edge is even more important! That one extra hitpoint might win you a PvP. Food for thought.

[Alvarakk]

Wrong.

With the RNG more fickle than ever -- 1, 10 or even 100 hitpoints rarely make a difference in the ultimate lottery that pvp combat has now become.

[Alvarakk]

I assume the 'too hard to make sure it didn't break other things' argument refers mostly to players that tave invested heavily into extra forest fights and therefore are more likely to frequently trigger the event. A very valid point.

Do consider however that those players have done so at a great expense of attack/defense which considerably hinders their pvp capabilities. The extra hitpoints from such random events could occassionally give them a fighting chance against players around their DK range. Furthermore, take into account that those same multiple ffs builds allow players to kill the dragon in a matter of 2-3 real-time game-days and they'd be unlikely to build-up a significant advantage during each DK cycle.

Perhaps you could give Nightwind's idea a chance and try making the fairy and vitality potions grant a random of 1-3 hitpoints for a week or so to see how it works?

[JCP]

Perhaps you could give Nightwind's idea a chance and try making the fairy and vitality potions grant a random of 1-3 hitpoints for a week or so to see how it works?

Nah. 1-3 is such a low amount. I assume you won't mind if I go higher?

[SaucyWench]

Wrong.

With the RNG more fickle than ever -- 1, 10 or even 100 hitpoints rarely make a difference in the ultimate lottery that pvp combat has now become.
Yes, but Alvarakk, you know the RNG goes both ways. Any of us could easily finish with 1 HP left, and without the extra HP we would have lost, no?

[Furion]

Perhaps you could give Nightwind's idea a chance and try making the fairy and vitality potions grant a random of 1-3 hitpoints for a week or so to see how it works?

Nah. 1-3 is such a low amount. I assume you won't mind if I go higher?

I won't mind in the least. :D I am fully converted to the low HP side, but being the master of suicide that I am, knowing that I stand the chance to gain some HP in the forest will allow me to spend some of the DK points I would have spent on HP on the other perks.

So, were you serious? :o (It's just so hard to tell with you, JCP :lol: )

[Enhas]

Has somebody changed something now?

I just got +5 HP from the Fairy, even though it still said +1 in the description. :shock:

[Hapa Angel]

Has somebody changed something now?

I just got +5 HP from the Fairy, even though it still said +1 in the description. :shock:
Report that with the petition button and get some points! :wink:

[Crowley]

Sorry, more newbie questions: I'm sure this has been answered, I must have missed it reading back the 29 pages!

I take it gauntlet hps are also no longer permanent?

Traveler Crowley

[JCP]

On central, no specials or shops grant permanent hitpoints. At most, they will last only until you slay the dragon.

After you slay the dragon, you may choose permament hitpoints as your reward, but that choice is up to the player.

[Crowley]

Thanks JCP :)

Traveler Crowley

[Furion]

All right! 5. That sounds nice. :D

[Eyeball]

Wrong.

With the RNG more fickle than ever -- 1, 10 or even 100 hitpoints rarely make a difference in the ultimate lottery that pvp combat has now become.
Yes, but Alvarakk, you know the RNG goes both ways. Any of us could easily finish with 1 HP left, and without the extra HP we would have lost, no?

Then why does my alt always lose to farmies, despite having around 10DK's and an HP advantage? I've stopped using him simply because he's gone so far backwards from losing PVP's to farmies, that it would take an unbearably long time to DK and start again. When a 10DK level 13 can't defeat a level 12 farmie, something is seriously wrong.

[Crowley]

Something is seriously wrong.

Your strategy?

[Eyeball]

So lets get this straight... I take extra Att/Def and HP after DK's. My character is therefore (theoretically) much stronger than a farmie, particularly one a level below me. I have max weapon/armour.

Please tell me how thats doing the wrong thing by my alt, so that he should lose almost every time to a farmie? So I should just start another alt, not get any DK's and wait to slaughter much higher ranked players in self defence?

[JCP]

So lets get this straight... I take extra Att/Def and HP after DK's. My character is therefore (theoretically) much stronger than a farmie, particularly one a level below me. I have max weapon/armour.

Please tell me how thats doing the wrong thing by my alt, so that he should lose almost every time to a farmie? So I should just start another alt, not get any DK's and wait to slaughter much higher ranked players in self defence?

Ok, let's see.

You claim 10 DKs, split between att/def/hp. Let's say a 3/3/4 distribution just to be fair.

Let's say you are level 15, attacking a level 14 farmie. Are you really much stronger?

You: Att: 33, Def: 33, HP: 170
Them: Att: 29, Def: 29, HP: 150

Your stats versus their stats: 33-29 = 4, 4/29 = 14% advantage

That's it. Not much stronger at all, and it is unreasonable to expect that you would win every fight - you should probably win more like 6 out of 10 fights, assuming the RNG is kind, since you don't have enough hp to withstand more than one or two bad results.

You now need a lot more than just 10 dks to overwhelm another player.

Farmies are not easy prey any more.

[ThantosFive]

assuming the RNG is kind :lol:


I choked on my coffee with that one..

..on the bright side, it's nice to see some of the god's lose some health when they pick on me at night.....durn pesky gods.

[YurianStonebow]

Yeah, would you believe it? I *actually hurt* McD. Once. And he started it! :D

[Shiqra]

After reading most of this - especially the latter portion, I am very glad I choose not to PvP. There seems be too much of a hassle associated with it. Death in my sleep was a given before - and for the most part a given still - usually from the same person night after night (Aye, Thantos - durn pesky Gods). I accept that. But my forest critter fighting has improved greatly - in spite of a Gryphon shortage in the realm of late. That generous Mystery Person's gift of Storm Giant has undoubtedly helped too. I know I will not get a 3 day DK unless I PvP - but it is quite satisfying to get a Flawless Fight while Thrillseeking, even at level 14. And my recent 12 day DK, no PvP, was pretty darn good too. I guess I play for simplicity and fun, and so far my strategy has worked hehe. I never had a lot of extra hitpoints before the Change, and have even less now. But I have increased my Attack and Defense, and that has helped. I also have not increased my Forest Fights. My extra Attack and Defense gives me Flawless Fights, so indirectly I spend more time playing anyways. So far this strategy seems to work for me quite nicely, and I actually win a fight or two at night once in a great while - which is great for morale.

All in all - I find this game quite addictive and fun, and a big HUZZAH and Thank You to all the people who code it and maintain it so I can play it.

My friend Kelt is a programmer - I got him hooked too and now he keeps talking about modules he could make if he only knew PHP. Are all programmer types like that?

[Ryuusei]

You know, if you choose not to PvP, you can always disable it under Preferences. But you'll lose the option to burn blue candles. Me, I usually don't bother with PvP until the higher levels (13+), where it simply takes too long to gain XP otherwise.

[Elessa]

You know, if you choose not to PvP, you can always disable it under Preferences. But you'll lose the option to burn blue candles. Me, I usually don't bother with PvP until the higher levels (13+), where it simply takes too long to gain XP otherwise.

actually, if ye ask the high ranked players, ye will find that the opposite is true. the higher thy rank when geared for pvp, the longer it takes to reach a level when lower. jrminga recently took four days to reach level 2. take a look at some of the bios to see of what i speak.

[Qwyxzl]

I can attest to the fact that the lower levels take a tremendous amount of effort for those of us near the top. While I almost always make 2nd level on my first day, I only rarely make third. The number of forest fights I do on the first day are about 1/3 of my total forest fights for the whole kill. And in terms of real time, I know that it is by far the longest day and may take almost half of the total time for that kill. Now on the other hand I get to kill the dragon in four or five game days, and only rarely have to worry about losing a PvP that I start so I guess godhood does have some perks :)

[jrminga]

jrminga recently took four days to reach level 2. take a look at some of the bios to see of what i speak.
man, four days is FAST for me these days.

[Shiqra]

Nay - I choose not to disable the PvP option. I do actually manage to kill a few people in my sleep once in awhile, but never those pesky gods. I would not give up my Blue Candles for anything; they are very valuable to me.

Elessa I will have to check some bios to see of what you speak. I must admit I am curious now...

[Qwyxzl]

man, four days is FAST for me these days.

Thats why I am catching up to you :)

[Shiqra]

Wow - I checked the Hall of Fame to see where I landed after my last DK - 10 days - WITHOUT initiating PvP!!! Holy guacamole - someone had a 2 day DK! It boggles the mind how they would do that. I wonder if it is possible to do it in one day?

[Sichae-Saracen]

Well... back in the day, there was a larger amount of Gems that a person got after a DK (now the max is ten) so Luine saved his Gems and money. Purchased a Gryphon, fed it, Purchased a new one, fed it... well, you get the picture. With luck added to that, he got a 2 day DK.

[DaFish]

Wow - I checked the Hall of Fame to see where I landed after my last DK - 10 days - WITHOUT initiating PvP!!! Holy guacamole - someone had a 2 day DK! It boggles the mind how they would do that. I wonder if it is possible to do it in one day?

having recently achieved a 2 day DK...i'm now in the process of planning for a 1 day DK, so fingers crossed that a 1 day DK is possible :wink:

[Shiqra]

Wow. All I can say is WOW. The mind boggles. Neat trick with the gems though. Gryphons are extremely rare these days though - I only recently got mine.

By the way Elessa - what does your sig say? And is that Gaelic or Welsh or another language?

[Elessa]

Wow. All I can say is WOW. The mind boggles. Neat trick with the gems though. Gryphons are extremely rare these days though - I only recently got mine.

By the way Elessa - what does your sig say? And is that Gaelic or Welsh or another language?

my sig is written in greylvish, and it translates to:

don't look for trouble; it will come to you

[Shiqra]

Aye - verily! I like that!!

What is Greylvish? Is that a real but ancient language, or an elvish one?

[Gargoyle]

I wanted to make a point and ask a question.

1) I think you all have done a brilliant job with this move to the new HP system. I was at first I was a little worried about the pending change, but I also knew you guys would be doing something that both in your minds, and in your hearts, was needed to improve the game for all. I can now say without a doubt that the changes have made my playing much more enjoyable. So my point is ... THANK YOU.

2) I believe you guys made this change to address one of the key issues of new players not staying with the game for long ... mainly because of frustration with getting killed via PvP. I think there were other issues as well. But my question is, have we now seen a higher percentage of new players sticking with the game on Central?

[SaucyWench]

I believe we have. It is always difficult to know how much of it is due to the time of year (exams, summer vacations, etc), but we were hovering on 5500-5900 players for quite a long time. We're now staying a fair bit above that. And we have the month of Esoterra's Festival coming up, where people seem to get into the spirit (get it! Spirit! haw haw) and invite friends, who tend to stay - we see increased numbers following specials. So yeah, overall, I think we have seen players sticking around for longer.

[Gargoyle]

So yeah, overall, I think we have seen players sticking around for longer.Excellent! Stop by the "Great Keg's" and I'll buy you an Ale.

[Furion]

:had been wondering that same thing, thanks Gargoyle.

:stops by for a drink, seeing as Q city is his new home town as a Storm Giant. :D

[Shiqra]

: buys a round for everyone...

*hic*

[Furion]

Ace or BD, feel free to undo it.

I think this topic is dead.

Good work, guys.