Imbalance after level 7

[lvangundy]

I know there's something just BARELY out of balance in this game and someday I hope someone else can notice or mathematically prove it (since I wouldn't be able to)..

Anyway..

The balance looks something like this in my head..

Level / Armor needed to survive "look for something to kill"
1 / 1
2 / 2
2 / 3
3 / 5
4 / 6
5 / 7
6/ 7
7 / 9
8 / 10
9 / 11
10 / 13
11 / 15
12 / 15
13 / 15
14 / 15
15 /15

As we get higher up in levels the axis of easy to difficult makes a wide sweep over. The mount calculation (and lovers protection) just makes this more complicated. Even with a mount and lovers protection, starting somewhere around level 9 "looking for something to kill" actually can end up killing you!

[Ebru]

Have you factored in weapon attack strength. Reason being that even when I was a farmboy I didn't even buy an upgrade in armour untill about Lv 7

[Talisman]

Sounds more like 'challenging' than an imbalance. Of course, perhaps you're right, and the fights at lower levels should be challenging as well, with the potential to kill you. :wink:

[Nocturnus]

Both armor and weaponry affect your survivability, for different reasons - better armor reduces the damage you take, while better weaponry kills them faster so you take less damage.

[antares]

Yes, but think of felynes who will have less gold (even if more gems). It's going to be very difficult to them to buy good equipement...

So I suppose they'll just have to be more patient and go slumming more often.

[JCP]

Not really what I've noticed, actually.

Based on petitions and the behavior of many players:

(a) the lower levels (1-2) are more affected by the RNG and have the least hitpoints to survive a bad RNG run, so are more deadly

(b) many players don't even bother maxing out their equipment after a few dks - even to face the dragon

(c) many players don't even bother buying equipment for several levels

Your observations may be true for your strategy, but there are a lot of other strategies out there.

[FatalOblivion]

It all depends on your strategy.

ATTACK:
Trollish strength plus all <Game Secret edited by BD>.

DEFENSE:
Bare minimum.

I bank gold until I can max out weapon and armor.

With just T-shirt, Fists and a Roc, I can LOOK until about level 6/7, then I need to permanently SLUM.

This worked well for me the last 3 DKs, but this round, I've been getting spanked a lot.

[Nightwind]

we've made combat changes, take a look arround the forum for detail

[nguoirung]

I don't think like lvangundy. What you say is when you have few DK and depend on your strategy. But mine is quite deference. Some time, until level 10 I still used my fist and my T-shirt but always go Thrillseeking and never lost. Even a time when I used my fist and faced to the Dragon.

Thinks about you strategy and make yourself bigger (by killing the Dragon :roll: ).

[antares]

Well, sure, but you people are speaking of high DK, aren't you? I just have one DK, and I remember struggling, even now that I am dwarf, to get my maximum upgrades in armor and weapon without dying too often.

I'm the greater slummer in the forest. :D

[lvangundy]

I find it extremely hard to believe you are thrillseeking at level 10 with lvl 1 armor and weapons. There is NO WAY I could do this.

Here's more of my findings..

At level 13 with evel 15 gear (weapon/armor) my attack is 31. My def is 30. as I've said before I don't mind posting these numbers.

When I start a new day to go forest fight, I buff with Lover's Protection and have my mount. These add somewhere around 18pts in damage and 12 in def. This brings me to about 49 Attack and 42 defense.

I am forced to only look for something to kill my roc rounds wear out. At that point if I have enough gold (usually I do) I feed my roc to continue looking for something to kill. If I don't feed it, I MUST go slumming because I can easily get killed while LFSTK.

When Lover's Protection wears off and I still have roc rounds I can possibly Look For Something To Kill. Realistically I must Slum otherwise I'm often (not always) dead in a auto-5 round fight with the chance of dying going way up if I auto-10. When both buffs wear out, I have to heal in the middle of fights even while slumming.

I don't know how else to prove that I think there is something flawed in the RNG at higher levels in forest fights.

I feel something needs to be changed. Maybe the RNG has too much 'swing' in higher levels. Maybe more skill points should be available, either increase the frequency of the which who gives you a point for a gem. Or start with 5 points and increase the cost of the uses so healing is available more often.

Another suggestion is to have the Weaponsmith appear more often and increase the odds that the armor/weapon WON'T fail. Even if it's only 1 point, it makes a necessary difference.

My other guess if I'm the only one having these problems is that there may be a flaw in my character data file? Something corrupted? I doubt that because there would probably be other issues. Is it the Human/Magic class? Maybe it's been my choices in spent dragon points.

I can still progress in levels, so it's not extremely bad but I feel something isn't right, especially if people are thrill seeking with level 1 equipment and I die with level 15 equipment while slumming!

[JCP]

I don't know how else to prove that I think there is something flawed in the RNG at higher levels in forest fights.

I feel something needs to be changed. Maybe the RNG has too much 'swing' in higher levels.

Not a flaw, but by design.

http://lotgd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=423


Is it the Human/Magic class?

Actually, yes. This is very likely.

You seem to be micromanaging your stats in order to maximize them. You may be better off with one of the other races that provides a stat bonus (either a direct stat bonus or by increasing your purchasing power) rather than the benefits that the human race provides.

[Nightwind]

what's your avalible stats at level 1? (including turns per day)

[Acemaster]

I don't see how you could possibly have a problem like this, but I do recommend tweaking your strategy (whether by adjusting race, class, dragon points, etc.)

[Pwyll]

starting somewhere around level 9 "looking for something to kill" actually can end up killing you!

Um... that's the idea. If you check the Daily News or player's bios, you'll see that even high-DK players get killed in the forest by creatures of their same level. At 64 DKs, playing as a human with Thieving Skills with a Gryphon, I can actually have flawless fights when using the new Search Suicidally option on Central (available only to those with 10 or more DKs if memory serves). But recently I was killed in the forest when doing a plain old Look for Something to Kill. In short, getting killed is part of the game for all of us - even McD (if you don't believe me, check his bio).

[Vode Andreas]

I have more trouble at the lower levels than the higher ones most of the time, though the only times I really die these day are as the result of irresponsible PvPs and special accidents.

[God Valxirion]

yes, I find higher levels much easier to advance in because opponents have much more experience then, I already start getting troubles at level 2 when monsters hit for almost 50 up to 100 damage in a fight

[lvangundy]

Is it the Human/Magic class?

Actually, yes. This is very likely.



Wait, so you're saying there's a class in the game that is unbalanced and is borderline useless? That should be looked into further, each class should be somewhat close in stats so the game is playable no matter which forest difficulty you select.

When I get my next DK I'll post my lvl 1 stats.

JCP - are the daily fights logged in detail? If we could review this in the future that would be awesome.

Today I did my new game day, I decided to slum through every round and found myself getting into the yellow zone of health after about 75% of the fights (estimate). I had both buffs enabled as well, roc and lover's..

I'm still reeling over the fact that someone said they could thrillseek and get flawless fights, that's definetly very far from the playing experience I have.

I'm not trying to be a game/forum troll over this issue, rather trying to find more ways to resolve a possible issue.
:wink:

[BLOODDRAGON]

Is it the Human/Magic class?

Actually, yes. This is very likely.



Wait, so you're saying there's a class in the game that is unbalanced and is borderline useless? That should be looked into further, each class should be somewhat close in stats so the game is playable no matter which forest difficulty you select.

When I get my next DK I'll post my lvl 1 stats.

JCP - are the daily fights logged in detail?

I'm still reeling over the fact that someone said they could thrillseek and get flawless fights, that's definetly very far from the playing experience I have.

I'm not trying to be a game/forum troll over this issue, rather trying to find more ways to resolve a possible issue.
:wink:

Actualy all the Races and Specialities are equal in balance its just that some set ups work better for some strategies and others dont and those that dont work for your strategy there are either:
A: another race or speciality or combo that works with your strategy
B: another strategy that works with your race and speciality
once again...experiment...

[Acemaster]

BD is right, they are balanced, it's just that different races are better for certain strategies. For my strategy, not being a dwarf makes a tremendous difference; of course, I had to change my strategy so I could save up gems, and now I am a Felyne.

[JCP]

Wait, so you're saying there's a class in the game that is unbalanced and is borderline useless?

No, all the standard races have approximately the same benefit, but they reach it in different ways.

For example, the elf race benefits defense and the troll offense. If your strategy requires a strong defense, you should know which race to play.

Your strategy, from what you have written, is more focused on stat increases than number of forest fights. So I'm not sure why you are playing a race that is the exact opposite of your strategy.

There are strategies that use the human race to an advantage, but that is not how you seem to be playing the game.


JCP - are the daily fights logged in detail? If we could review this in the future that would be awesome.


Not with those details. Our log files are pretty big and we don't track everything, just what is normally needed to fix things.

[BLOODDRAGON]

JCP-are the daily fights logged in detail? If we could review this in the future that would be awesome.

You can always keep a pad and pencil by your computer ( or even a program on your computer such as Microsoft Word or something) and record yuor battles and stats and pin point a solution to your problem

[lvangundy]

This is exactly what I'm talking about regarding the lack of information available to the player to make better game play decisions. I mentioned this in a previous thread.

These basic statistics of each character class should be posted so the player knows what they are getting into. I had no idea about the stats you posted. At the very least the basics of each class should be given. I have NEVER seen any RPG with multiple character classes that don't show data in an obvious way. Especially when you're making a major choice. Now I'm waiting for that one repsonse that pulls the text straight out of a vague description of the characterstics of each class. :D :D

Personally, I'd rather play human class and have no interest in playing any other. I should have this option (and I do) but would like to know that playing another class may be more benefitial to my playing style.

Leaving all these things up to the player doesn't make an attractive game for the players who look into the details. Yes there are many things in LOtGD that should remain hidden, I agree. But the single most important part of the game, YOU, are given scarce information to make playing decisions. Please consider adding a basic description for each class, possibly all on one page so that the player doesn't just pick what he thinks he wants, and thinks something is wrong later on the down the road. :?



No, all the standard races have approximately the same benefit, but they reach it in different ways.

For example, the elf race benefits defense and the troll offense. If your strategy requires a strong defense, you should know which race to play.

Your strategy, from what you have written, is more focused on stat increases than number of forest fights. So I'm not sure why you are playing a race that is the exact opposite of your strategy.

There are strategies that use the human race to an advantage, but that is not how you seem to be playing the game.

[quote=lvangundy]
JCP - are the daily fights logged in detail? If we could review this in the future that would be awesome.

[Acemaster]

We are constantly reiterating that you should explore the game and not be spoon-fed information. I know it sounds harsh, but I believe it is more fun in the long run. Make an alt and find out what each does!

[JCP]

I have NEVER seen any RPG with multiple character classes that don't show data in an obvious way.

This speaks more to your lack of experience with those types of RPGs than to their existence.

However, I certainly appreciate you giving our little game a try.


Now I'm waiting for that one repsonse that pulls the text straight out of a vague description of the characterstics of each class. :D :D

Not going to happen.

You do realize that you have made the choice to be a human 8-9 times already? And each time as soon as you make that choice, you get the "detailed characteristics" for the human race immediately.

But you have never once investigated the other races? Ever? If not for your main character, create an alt, choose a race, find out what it does, and then abandon it.

No, instead you post on the forums that we should re-evaluate the difficulty of the game.


Personally, I'd rather play human class and have no interest in playing any other. I should have this option (and I do)

Yes, you do. However, based on this thread and some others you have participated in, I can state with absolute certainty that for your playing style, a human is the worst choice for you, gameplay wise.

Do you have this certainty? No - but that is because you have repeatedly chosen not to investigate other options, even while you wonder why the options you choose time and time again aren't working out as well as you hoped.


but would like to know that playing another class may be more benefitial to my playing style.

Classes are a bit more difficult to make generalizations about - there are some good abilities in each, and even players with very similar philosophies have differing opinions about the abilities.

I strongly encourage you to experiment with the different abilities.


Leaving all these things up to the player doesn't make an attractive game for the players who look into the details. Yes there are many things in LOtGD that should remain hidden, I agree. But the single most important part of the game, YOU, are given scarce information to make playing decisions. Please consider adding a basic description for each class, possibly all on one page so that the player doesn't just pick what he thinks he wants, and thinks something is wrong later on the down the road. :?


You almost have a valid argument. However in your case it's:

"so that the player doesn't just pick what he thinks he wants over and over and over again, and thinks something is wrong later on"

We disagree on the matter of the player ("YOU") being the single most important part of the game.

The racial stats are only one part of the game - more significant than some mount buffs, less significant than others.

We want you to experience as many mounts, races, special abilities, events, and everything else as much as possible. Trying new things and exploring the unknown can be fun, and this is a game, not a spreadsheet of numbers to maximize.

If you like all that stat-crunching and maximizing, fine - but at least be adventurous enough to look for the numbers yourself instead of asking for people to hand them to you.

[Pwyll]

These basic statistics of each character class should be posted so the player knows what they are getting into. I had no idea about the stats you posted. At the very least the basics of each class should be given. I have NEVER seen any RPG with multiple character classes that don't show data in an obvious way. Especially when you're making a major choice.

OK, JCP answered this rather effectively, but just to add my two cents' worth -

It seems like what you're asking is that before you choose your race you get a list along the lines of:

HUMAN - X Attack, X Defense, BONUS=whatever
ELF - X Attack, X Defense, BONUS=whatever
DWARF - X Attack, X Defense, BONUS=whatever
etc. etc...

That makes no sense to me. What fun is a game without surprises? And it's easy enough, as several people have pointed out already, to make alt characters and find out what all the races do for you.

More troubling is your statement that you have no interest in playing as other than a human. If being Human doesn't fit your strategy, and you won't change your strategy, then you really need to consider trying a different race.

Personally, I played most of my time as a Human with Mystical Powers, then I switched to Thieving Skills. My strategy involves keeping Attack alittle higher than Defense and adding Hitpoints occasionally. From what JCP said, it sounds like my strategy may actually be similar to lvangundy's, which suggests that I've been doing it wrong - yet I am at number 39 in the Hall O' Fame on Central with 65 DKs, so I must be doing something right :)

Recently I was able to make a donation that allowed me to play as a Storm Giant, which has a whole new set of unexplored benefits. I've also played a DK each as an Elf and as a Felyne. Human and Storm Giant are still my favorites. Of course, at 65 DKs with a Gryphon, it's kind of hard not to advance...

[lvangundy]

Ok, you've convinced me.

I'll try a different race on the next DK. I know there are other options to do this faster, but I don't want to give away any secrets..

BTW - I played the original LORD and LORD2 back in the late 90's. I've been around the game for a while. Yes, I know this is quite different from that old version.

[Booger]

There are some players who do persist in playing a certain race for roleplay or other reasons. They always relise they're sticking to that race's racial benefit even if it's not the best for their strategy though.

I was a troll for a long time, but finally switched to another race because it was more beneficial to my strategy.

Both are valid reasons for choosing your race, but unless your preferred race matches the benefit you want, you're going to have to give up the other.

[God Valxirion]

Also, just experiment everything, after a while you will see what's best for you!

[SaucyWench]

Ya know what? I (and one other player, that I am aware of) know the "perfect" strategy to maximise the advantage over the beasts, and the fastest dragon kill. Did I start with that? Have I done it perfectly from day one and maximised everything perfectly? Do I have my stats exactly as I want them to take advantage of the strategy?

No. What a BORE the game would be, to know all these things from the beginning! Would the game hold ANY interest you if you always knew everything that could and would happen? NO WAY! It would no longer be a GAME. This is a GAME, dude, not a shopping list. Not something you methodically fill like a cart.

Why can't you try something, play with it, fail, smile, and try something else? Where is the fun in reading a book when you know the ending???

I dispute your assertion that we should post all the details of exactly how all the races and strategies work. We have 5,600 players here, and only two of them pull the game to pieces the way you have. Sure, you'll probably succeed in perfecting your ideal strategy, but what will it get you in the end? If your only goal in this place is to know all the secrets in moving more efficiently, to move up through the ranks until you win... I'll let you in on a secret. Booger will never let you get close. I hope you have some other way up your sleeve of finding enjoyment in this game.

[lvangundy]

I have another question that I hope might convince someone here something isn't right.

What are the demographic stats for the Human class in LOTGD (central?) If there's a considerable amount of non-human class players, this might say something about that class. If so, it's almost like playing favorites.


Saucy: Look at WOW for example. Yes it's an entirely different game, but they give you the basic stats for each class before you pick it. Knowing the basic stats doesn't ruin the entire game! And books give you a summary before you buy it them!

[Moonchilde]

WoW is a very different game.

There, you are pretty much locked into what you start with unless you want to abandon all of your previous accomplisments to change.

*here* you get the chance to change and refine and redo, *every* dragonkill.

Thus, there is less (much much much less) penalty for not giving that information up front. So, you are barking up the wrong tree.

As for stats on various races, I'll pull some from Dragoncat for you.

Dwarf -- 43
Elf -- 77
Felyne -- 31
Human -- 29
Storm Giant -- 11
Troll -- 24

So what does this say. Elf is by far the most preferred. Okay.. people like the Elf defense bonus. Next is dwarf, and the other 3 'easy to aquire' races are all about equal (31, 29, 24). Storm Giant is the lowest, but that's expected because it requires a donation.

I will not post the exact numbers for central though I could, but I don't feel it is my place.. I will just say that the numbers are slightly different though Elf is once more the far favorite and human the second favorite by about 1.4x over it's next competitor (the dwarf). Dwarf and Troll are about equal, Felyne is next and the lowest (again by a very large margin) is the Storm Giant.

Hopefully this will lay your preconcieved notions to rest?

[Sneakabout]

*suspects that Elf has an advantage for non-stat related reasons... people wanting to be elves for instance*

[Moonchilde]

Cest possible.

I merely suggested one reason.. Your's is probably just as valid.

Either way it pretty roundly disproves the 'humans are not worthwhile' assertion.

[Pwyll]

the lowest (again by a very large margin) is the Storm Giant.

Probably because you need 2,000 donator points to even have the option of being a Storm Giant. And Felynes may be low because they're a new option.

[Nightwind]

i suspect that storm giants will slowly rise to a more balanced amount with the other easy races, it will just take time.

I predict that it already is balanced in the top 20%

[God Valxirion]

I believe races also have secondary advantages in specials (I know the dwarf one) and maybe also in ales

maybe the elf secondary advantage is really good because most people prefer attack above defense I believe

[lvangundy]

hehehe. that's funny.

Good point about the DK re-roll, definetly can't compare to WOW.




*suspects that Elf has an advantage for non-stat related reasons... people wanting to be elves for instance*

[Heresia]

hehehe. that's funny.

Well it might be, but it's true, too. At least for some people. Like me back when I was a Farmie. I chose "elf" for my first race because elves are graceful and attractive. This image I had got from countless fantasy books and some movies and rpgs (RuneQuest, D&D). I think that some of the present-day Farmies might have thought along the same tracks that I did...

*pauses as someone pulls at her sleeve* "What do you mean off-topic?" *tries her best to produce a look of innocent, wide-eyed wonder*

[Mylon]

I've played Dwarf and Felyne so far. I can already say that the Felyne kicks the pants off of Elf or Troll in terms of simple bonuses. Before I learned that forest fights doubled as not-so-free travels, I was going to play an elf, just to have the advantage of not having to waste a travel to burn blue candles.

Dwarf is nice because it can get the good armor early and have plenty of money left over for buffs to continue doing the normal level fights.

Felyne so far seems to be really nice because of the more permanent effects its special has.

For my very first time through as a dwarf, I generally didn't have any problems. I got the best weapon and armor at around level 10 and I was able to do normal fights ever since, except at level 14 where I had a few too many close calls.

As a Felyne I'm starting to consider slumming at level 5, but partly due to being underequipped for obvious reasons.

Something I'm curious about is if the monsters get harder at higher DKs. I mean, if high DK people still die but have certain bonuses to make things easier, then shouldn't that mean that the monsters are tougher?

[BLOODDRAGON]

yes the higher DKs your go the higher the monsters hit point range is and the more attacks the monster get

[Nightwind]

a little beyond that, it's a mater of the monsters being adjusted to your bace stats. There may or may not be an option in the dk, that dosen't change the monsters in the forest.

(the dragon on the other hand)

[ChattyTrog]

The 'Choose Race' page offers subtle hints as to the race benefits. And knowing one race benefit will help infer what the others are.

[Zach]

I personally have never needed to go slumming. Ever. Not once in 40 DKs. I've always gone thrillseeking or searched suicidally as much as I can. I think I started thrillseeking constantly at about 5 DKs or so, and have been ever since.

[Pwyll]

I never deliberately go slumming either. I usually thrillseek or Search Suicidally once my equipment is maxed. Until then I get a lot of flawless fights (and thus more turns) by just Looking - I find that I get more gold and XP that way than by Thrillseeking.

Once I max out weapon and armor, it's Thrillseek all the way.

On a related subject, has anyone else noticed that "Look for something to kill" generates a lot of "involuntary slumming"? About 20% of the time I get a slumming fight instead of one at my own level...

[muad]

On a related subject, has anyone else noticed that "Look for something to kill" generates a lot of "involuntary slumming"? About 20% of the time I get a slumming fight instead of one at my own level...

i have also found that "look for something to kill" creates some involuntary "thrillseeking" as well. i don't know the percentage but i have caught off guard more than once with that action.

[BLOODDRAGON]

Looking will get you a monster of your level and maybe a monster that is one level higher or one level lower

Slumming will get you a monster one level lower than you and maybe a monster that is 2 levels lower than you or your level

Thrillseeking will get you a monster one level higher than you and maybe a moster that is your level or 2 levels higher than you

And the Monsters found in Suicide are like that of Thrillseekering but their HP and stats fluxuate

[Deimos]

To be more accurate, you always have a chance of being one off of the level you're targetting.

[Balthus Dire]

To put it so looking for somehting to kill is simple going around the forest and you may be in the dangerous part or safer part.